Posted by William Charles on July 15, 2017
Credit Cards

Published on July 15th, 2017 | by William Charles

175

Chase Sends Out Survey Regarding Possible Changes To Transferring Chase UR Points For 1.5¢ Travel Redemptions

Reddit user msd2179 completed a Chase Customer Panel survey regarding the ability to transfer Chase Ultimate Rewards points to the Chase Sapphire Reserve to take advantage of the 1.5¢ per point value you get when redeeming for travel through the Chase travel portal. They wanted to know how users would feel about the following options:

  1. “When you combine the Ultimate Rewards points on eligible Chase Cards they would retain their original redemption value – that is, when transferred the points would retain the redemption value of the product they were initially earned on. For example you would not earn a travel redemption bonus if your transfer from a no fee card to a Fee card.”
  2. “You can only combine Ultimate Reward points between no-annual fee cards or between annual fee cards. You cannot combine Ultimate Rewards points between a no-annual fee card and an annual fee card.”
  3. “You can combine Ultimate Rewards points on eligible Chase cards at a 3:2 conversion ratio. For example if you would like to transfer 15,000 points from your Freedom Unlimited card to your Sapphire Reserve account, your Sapphire Reserve would be credited with 10,000 points (a 3:2 ratio). The transferred points would be granted the redemption value and options of the account to which they are transferred into.”

All three of these options are terrible and significantly devalue the current value you can get from the Chase Freedom Unlimited (1.5x Chase UR on all purchases) and the Chase Freedom (5x Chase UR on rotating categories). If they made these changes I assume they would also affect your ability to transfer the points to Chase’s travel partners as well. Obviously this is just a preliminary survey to see how customers would feel about these changes, but it isn’t good to see Chase even considering these types of negative changes.

If you received this survey, make sure you complete it so Chase knows how terrible these changes would be for cardholders. Might as well transfer over any points you have just in case as well.

Small Update: A number of months back, we heard a rumor from an insider that this kind of change was being looked at.



175 Responses to Chase Sends Out Survey Regarding Possible Changes To Transferring Chase UR Points For 1.5¢ Travel Redemptions

  1. Nick says:

    Maybe I’m missing something but what kind of response do they expect?

    I feel usually with things like this they have one positive aspect to somewhat outweigh the negative, but these are all negative changes.

    • I think they know people won’t like the changes, but I guess the idea is to find out how much they hate them.

      • bob says:

        it basically makes the FU completely useless, right?

        • Mark O says:

          Yup – essentially a 1.5% cash back card like the quicksilver.

        • Depends if they still allow transfers to travel partners or not. The survey was just about travel redemption.

          • Tavosa says:

            Yes but based on point #3 you posted, if you transferred points from the FU to CSR, you would get a 3:2 ratio – making it a useless card BECAUSE you can earn 1 pt/dollar on any annual fee card that CAN transfer to travel partners, no?

            The only two cards I can see mattering for transferring from a no annual fee to annual fee therefore making them possible to transfer to travel partners (if they even allow this in the end)…. is like 5% on Ink Cash in the categories (office supply stores
            On internet, cable and phone services), and 2% on Gas and Restaurants (which for the latter, both CSP and CSR already earn 2/3 respectively so….) and then 5% rotating categories on Freedom.

            So like…

            Ink Cash would technically earn ~3.33 with 3:2 convert
            Ink Cash would technically earn ~1.33 with 3:2 convert
            Freedom would technically earn ~3.33 with 3:2 convert

            Correct me if I am wrong.

          • Tavosa says:

            Oh… and also, IF A CHOICE HAD TO BE MAD…. I would take #2 if it was the end of the world… at least then we could still get 1.5ccp through travel redemption (and 1:1 on 3pt/dollar for travel partner transfers) the 3% categories from the Ink Preferred, at best.

            but MUCH more take option #1 if they are not implying that we CAN NOT transfer from FU to CSR and then to partners… since it only mentions “travel redemption” aka 1.5 ccp through portal…. anyone have clarity? I think they are honestly only worried about the 1.5 redemptions… which is what scares me about option #2…. means I can not get 5% and move to Hyatt at 1:1. I do not use 1.5 ccp often at all, so to me, FU or Ink Cash points to UR for hyatt redemption or Singapore/Korean Air, much more important to me…. scary

            lastly I would take 3:2 if we can still transfer to travel partners at 1:1 in the even that option #1 makes us unable.

            Also, AGAIN, this is only if this is FOR SURE coming, and we had to truly pick an option >.<

            GL HF GG

        • mh says:

          Not only the FU, the Freedom 5x, the Ink Cash 5x as well. I have two of each of these!

          would be the biggest devaluation I’ve seen yet.

    • artgriego says:

      They want to find out if enough people are clueless so they can pass these changes without worrying about backlash.

  2. Matt says:

    This would be terrible for anyone that actually earns points by spending. It completely destroys the value of the Freedom Unlimited at 3:2, where it becomes a 1x card. and that’s not even the worst option!

  3. Sam says:

    I got it, and it was a tricky survey. If you weren’t paying attention you wouldn’t realize that that’s what they were asking. They surrounded all of the changes with other “great features.” Those features were things the cards already have (including the incredible redemption of points with Amazon for 80 cents on the dollar when you only get 100 cents on the dollar when you redeem UR points for cash…).

    But yeah, if you weren’t paying attention you wouldn’t realize that Chase was proposing anything new. Very misleading. But I caught it and expressed my displeasure and likelihood to look elsewhere for credit cards.

    • Vincent says:

      Yeah I’m pretty sure there were no other changes (at least not that I noticed) except for the UR changes.

  4. Dave says:

    This is terrible, but honestly, kind of makes sense for the bank. They don’t want people getting 5 UR from free Freedom and transferring to CSR and redeeming for 7.5c. I would be severely disappointed if this happened. It would also pretty make me drop the CFU immediately.

    • bob says:

      exactly, i’d either PC it to a CF and get 10/3 when transferring to my INK+.

      Or PC my CFU to a CSP, and my INK+ to a Ink Cash and get 10/3 on more stuff that way.

      ugh. dammit.

  5. PAUL says:

    If they want me to cancel the Sapphire Reserve, this is how to do it. The 1.5 is a sufficient sweet spot that I’ll eat the $450.

    They’d better grandfather it or face major revolt.

  6. Peter says:

    I would cancel all annual fee Chase cards and switch to 2% Fidelity or 2.5% USAA Limitless.

    Implementing this change would destroy the great program Chase has built.

    • Peter says:

      To add, if Chase retains the current reward program I have no intention to cancel any of my Chase cards. But a devaluation or change as outlined in this post will cause me to switch lenders.

  7. Vic says:

    TL;DR:

    Chase is considering killing Ultimate Rewards, want to know how to kill it.

  8. Vic says:

    Jokes aside, if they really decides to separate UR into two types, Freedom, FU, and Ink Cash would be extremely devalued, and people who still haven’t downgrade Ink Plus would be VERY happy.

    • Alex says:

      What value would the ink plus retain? Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see anything indicating this. I just got my first annual fee from ink plus and am thinking about downgrading to a second ink cash.

      • Vic says:

        The three (awful) choices are all trying to differentiate UR cards with AF and without AF.

        If any one of it becomes true, the points earn on Ink+ will become more valuable than the points earned on Ink Cash.

  9. MoreSun says:

    Wow Chase. Wow. I’ve been thrilled with Chase & loved using my CSR/Freedom combo and tell my friends all about it. Heck, my parents are enjoying it so much they’re looking at switching their business spending to chase from Amex. I asked them about this & they said they’d give up their CSR, had planned on keeping it. I’d give mine up to (had also planned on keeping it).

  10. Chucks says:

    The type of person who even knows UR can be transferred between cards is kind of Chase’s nightmare. Consistent 1.5cent redemptions are simply unsustainable for 5x categories.

    Earn and burn my friends.

  11. CM says:

    So, if 1.5 CFU points would equal 1 CSR point… Does it mean I can transfer 100k CSR points onto CFU, and get 150k points, redeemable for 1.5k cash? Because that’d be great!

  12. Russ says:

    Attn Chase: Amex already tried having two classes of one rewards currency. Go ask then how it worked out. Really, go ask, we’ll wait….

  13. NinjaX says:

    RIP UR…

  14. max says:

    Would instantly cancel all my chase cards and close my bank account with them

    • Richard says:

      Yeah big deal. Who are you gonna turn to next? Why do you think they give out big bank bonuses and credit cards? Trying to take aim at the millionaire spenders that are loyal amexers that don’t care about UR as much

  15. Sean says:

    Well, there goes my plan to get the CSR for my annual 12k insurance spend…
    I’ll stick to my 2% cash from Cap 1– they even forgive the AF when I ask.

  16. Mist Soalar says:

    Chase will rebrand FU to Freedom Limited or Limited Freedom.
    Ink Cash should be Ink “Cash Only”.
    FUFU.

  17. Max says:

    Following

  18. Wash says:

    Thanks for the heads up! Although such changes usually take a little while to get implemented, I transferred my points to CSR immediately!

  19. UPS guy says:

    Gives me more of a reason to keep MSing on my SPG card.

  20. JR says:

    So I have 25K points in Chase Freedom and 100K points in Chase Sapphire Reserve(I will be downgrading or cancel the Chase Sapphire Reserve when 1 year is up)

    So what is the best..to transfer from Freedom to CSR or CSR to Freedom? Where should I be keeping my points

    • MoreSun says:

      CSR. Why the heck would you keep them on the lower-level card? (Unless you’re worried Chase will cancel cash redemptions?)

      • JR says:

        So if transfer all my UR from Freedom to CSR but what if I downgrade my CSR with no fee (after completion of 1 year as do not want to be charged $450) ..will the value of the CSR points remain same as of Chase Freedom…

        • V says:

          “will the value of the CSR points remain same as of Chase Freedom…”

          Yes, if you convert your CSR to Freedom, the points value will be that of a Freedom card. I think all non-AF Chase cards give 1x points redemption value.

  21. P says:

    Option 2 is interesting. Why would the points on a no annual fee card earning UR be called UR if they can’t be transferred? They’re just regular cash back unless you can transfer them.

  22. mh says:

    They must have really took it up the a$$ with the CSR giveaway, and the lack of renewals.

    • Max says:

      Lack of renewals? I see the CSR everywhere in my everyday life. A LOT of people got that card; churners and savvy consumers are likely a very small chunk of them.

      I hypothesize that Chase has struck gold on this, because most of them will renew and will pay the 450 AF every year. I think Chase might be wanting to just condition people to thinking that a 450 AF card with some cool features (eg lounge access, 300 credit, GE credit) is not worth the trouble of cancelling.

      Think about it: the phone companies have worked into conditioning people to thinking that paying 50-70 each month for a service that costs cents is OK (it’s not OK). Apple has convinced people to pay 600-800 every two years for phones which kinda suck and are priced 4x as much as their manufacturing cost (as opposed to the vast majority of hardware which has thin margins). I think Chase has dropped another conditioning on people: that paying a 450 AF for a fancy credit card is also something they will be willing to continue. I don’t think most people will cancel. Just the savvy ones.

      • mh says:

        Most of the sheep who got the CSR did so for the 100,000 points. They also were 76% more likely to cash out the points as a statement credit.

        They’re the ones Chase can’t recapture.

      • Dan says:

        I will not be cancelling. The annual fee is 150, not 450. The benefits are worth it to me.

    • sirtheta says:

      The lack of renewals on a card that hasn’t been out for a year, yet? I find that extremely unlikely.

      • Gadget says:

        I am sure they are running the numbers… based on stats of those that have already closed out & cashed out, and predicting about how many more people they will lose at the year mark when the new $450 AF charge appears. They likely know they need some changes, because I think they underestimated the amount of people that weren’t afraid of taking on an upfront $450 annual fee card for mega rewards… hence why they couldn’t even keep the metal cards in stock, and made public statements about the overwhelming initial response, then slashing the 100K signup bonus to 50K after a couple months.

        If it’s not profitable, they have to make it that way. It’s business – it’s their obligation to make the company money. Also, notice how they are narrowing the 5X rewards on the FU… only one category this quarter.

        I didn’t jump on the CSR bandwagon, but I did get the CSP recently and will not be paying the AF next year (but I will ask if they will waive it), but I am also just taking flat cash value on my points. I don’t travel enough to make it worth it, and when I do, I can usually find a better price “on the outside” than the 25% increase (CSP) of the UR mall price. To each their own.

        • Tavosa says:

          Resturants and movie theaters on Freedom this quarter…. not sure your ” only one category this quarter” except that the ability to max out 5% or even 10% of the $1500 is insanely hard/low unless you see a movie with the family at $12 a pop twice a week all quarter lol.

          • Gadget says:

            My mistake. I only go to the movies but maybe once or twice a year. I think I selectively forgot about that category. 5% back in points isn’t compelling enough to get me off the couch.

        • farsighted99 says:

          I love my CSR card. Wouldn’t cancel a card that costs me a net of $150 and gives me 1.5 on air travel. I like the Freedom card for the 5X offers. Have an INK Plus card for the 5X offers. I also have a few other Chase cards that give different offers.

          Would be disappointed in them changing the “sharing” benefits. Perhaps we should all transfer our points now from the low end cards, eh?

  23. Dan says:

    Horrible change. Will kill the UR family. There will be no reason to keep their cards, including CSR.

    • Tavosa says:

      This (POSSIBLE) devaluation is only hurting the Freedom, Freedom Unlimited, and Ink Cash…. not sure why everyone is saying they would not keep the essentially $150 fee card for 3% back on travel and restaurants? Still get 1.5ccp value in travel redemption and transfer 1:1 to partners… I will definitely keep it. Mostly this will kill me for my 5% back on then ink on huge cellphone, cable, internet bill netting me about 30-40k points a year for doing nothing. At that rate i can sell for $95 fee on Ink Preferred for 3% on same thing, but with a lot less enjoyment :(….. also office supply stores 5 real UR points goes bye bye with the Ink Cash if this happens, which SUCKS…. God I wish I had been approved back in the day for the Ink Plus.

      It isn’t possible to convert to Ink Plus these days right? I mean they intentionally killed the product as I recall?

      • oomps says:

        If you don’t regularly pay for travel or eat out a ridiculous amount, then the redemption increase/transfer that you get for $150 isn’t worth it.

        Most of our non-signup URs are from 3xfreedom cards an an fu. This would definitely put the Reserve below the Prestige for me as far as retention.

        • Deb says:

          I will agree with that. Not being a traveler makes even the $150 af seem too steep. We more than make up for it with the travel redemption rate and the other travel benefits. I couldn’t believe so many people were claiming to have cashed out the sign up bonus until I realized they must not be travelers.

      • Lrdx says:

        There are no-fee cards that give 3% on travel and at restaurants (OK, separate cards, but still). CSR alone worth it’s $150 net fee if you spend an annual $10000 in that two categories, or you value URs above 1.5c. I don’t so I’m not keeping CSR without other Chase cards.

        Freedom gives you an extra 4x1500x5-1500×3 (as usually restaurants is one of the quarterly categories) = 25500 URs if you can max them out. Instead of cashing it out, transferring $255 to CSR gives you an extra $127.5 value. Now you need only $1500 travel+restaurant spend for CSR to be net positive. Maxing out one quarter reduces the needed restaurant+travel spending to break even by $2500 (by $1000 if it’s a restaurant quarter).

        Add Ink Cash with it’s mobile and internet to CSR. I spend ~$120 / month on both, transferring to CSR reduces the breakeven point by $2400.

        CFU is probably already not worth keeping: It’s only 2.25% with CSR, while you can get 2.5% with Alliant or 2.625% with BofA TR /w Platinum Honors..

  24. chaseaholic says:

    Thanks for the heads up, just filled out the survey voicing my displeasure towards gutting the UR system – futile as it may be, still gotta do it.

    Fun little bit was at the beginning that they ask how many CC’s you have total and the max # is 15.

    Not entirely surprised at the changes they’re looking at though – Devil’s Advocate predicted that nerfs would come to the 1.5 cpp UR portal when the card was released and sure enough here we are.

    I’m mostly surprised at the rate – they are already looking at cutting the cards benefits, didn’t the Prestige last 3-4 years before they went in on benefit cuts? Barely finished year 1 of release and already considering seriously devaluing the program…

    • UPS Guy says:

      Might just be a ploy to see what the public says on the blogs, getting an initial reaction on the level of outrage and probability of canceling at the upcoming 1 year mark.

    • Tavosa says:

      Where did you all get the survey? A direct email, a pop up. a secure message?

      I have a CSR, Ink Preferred, Freedom, Amazon Visa, 3 bank accounts… etc, and my GF has the CSR too. No surveys. Wonder who they are asking, or if it is 100% randomized.

  25. Kyle says:

    I would close all chase accounts seeing that there is now no value compared to any others, priority pass sucKS and nothing else the card gives is good except rental insurance. They would become what citi is now. Would then just become a Amex guy full and through. Everyday and platinum combo all the way. That was a great move chase. Lol

  26. sirtheta says:

    These options are pretty enraging. Chase is looking really hard at dismantling a great program, and it’ll be a damn shame.

    On the subject of the options, why the fuck would anyone transfer 3:2 when they could cash out at the same rate?

    • chaseaholic says:

      Heh, why would anyone cash out UR for an Amazon gc at 0.80 cpp when you could get 1 cpp for cash and then get bare minimum 1% by purchasing stuff with a cc?

      • Tavosa says:

        yeah…… LOL to this on every level. Naive consumers are the cash cows of the credit industry…. just like paying interest.

        My first card with Chase was Freedom and I got a 30,000 UR sign up bonus, my only regret, now and forever, was cashing those to a statement credit… that was when I was young and dumb… 4 years ago 😉

    • People use shop with amazon and it’s 0.8 per point instead of 1 per point cash redemption. People are stupid unfortunately and Chase/other card issuers constantly take advantage of this fact. It’s one of the many reasons I don’t have an issue trying to help readers get even!

      • Terri Clark says:

        That’s why we love this site! Thanks for what you do! I have been a long time fan of Amex and it looks like that will be even more so now.

    • Jesse says:

      This would still give you the option for airline/hotel transferability, so there would be some value.

  27. Superchurn says:

    Time to transfer all UR to CSR methinks

  28. zmicer88 says:

    The bank’s strategy with these possible changes might be to force CSR holders to put their everyday spend on the premium card and prevent ‘card-shopping.’ Clearly, they are bleeding from the generous bonus – also recall the switch to the travel credit from the calendar to membership year.

  29. Jay says:

    CSR, FU, F, get virtually all my spend. I’m not some super sm’er, but I want to maximize my everyday spend value. They’d likely lose every drop of bussines from me if they go through with any of these options.

  30. Nick says:

    I have 8 Chase cards (all open). Paid a ton in annual fees but it was worth it to me and they still are. I would cancel all of them if this happened though.

  31. Adam says:

    Honestly keeping things the way they are is not sustainable for Chase. With the right combination of cards and the rotating freedom categories, you are essentially getting 2.25 cent to 7.5 cent value per dollar spent with Chase. Merchant fees are probably only around 3%. Unless you are carrying a balance, which I hope no one here is, Chase must be hemorrhaging money.

    I think a fair compromise would be to cap the number of points that can be transferred annually to the CSR. Maybe an annual limit of 30k, after which points would have to be converted at a 3:2 ratio.

    • MH says:

      No ideas please!

      I never understood why when a company makes a proposed negative change, people start volunteering how how far they’re willing to bend over!

      Just say NO!! WTF do we have to compromise? Just say NO!

    • Bob says:

      I think there’s a large amount of people carrying balances and we are the monitory (churners). Also, there are people who just cash out points or even use them directly on Amazon (even worst than cashing out, but there are, my mom for example). Not to mentor people who transfer them to IHG or Marriot.

      • Tavosa says:

        IHG/Marriot/Amazon EWWWWWW….. I do Hyatt VERY often, but easily get 2.5/3 ccp….

        And yes, was gonna agree… tons and tons and tons and tons and may I repeat? TONS of people carry balance. In fact I can’t think of one of my friends who does not carry balances on credit. (I need new smarter friends)

    • MoreSun says:

      But they’re not. I booked a hotel for about 7K UR (value about $100) from my CSR. I called the hotel with a request & they said “we have you in a King room at $70/night”. I called Chase & they said well, that’s their travel supplier rate & the hotel shouldn’t have quoted me that rate.

      Chase is booking travel at wholesale rates, they would have paid me $70 is cash from my CFU but I transferred the points & spent them on travel happy as a lark. Chase gets most of my transaction fees these days because of the transferability. But they do reserve the right to shoot themselves in the foot.

      • FLL says:

        I may also add that when booking an independent property, there is NO WAY to verify your booking is in the property’s system.

        After reading about horror stories of how UR bookings mysteriously “got lost” in the transmission to the hotels, leaving the travelers standing at the lobby on arrival without a room (often in a Sold Out situation), and it was extremely difficult to sort it out with UR due to the bookings were made thru “vendors” which often were Expedia or Priceline or some barely known OTAs, I decided to check with the property directly on my only 2 UR bookings.

        One is Radisson Le Vendome at Cape Town. Club Carlson told me it was booked thru Expedia with a special rate – it was under an Expedia Cert to be exact and I could see it on the booking with the hotel confirmation number I fished out from UR Help Desk. At least that booking looks in order.

        However the other one is a Guest House which is available several OTAs including Expedia and Booking.com, and it has its own sebsite – this one UR said is also booked thru expedia which claims the reservation is “Active”.

        Unfortunately the property has so far not replied to 4 emails sent to its email address listed on its website, as well as thru the web form email, asking for verification of the booking, as well as to coordinate the Check In time due to the owner does not live on premises.

        I have escalated the case with the Help Desk at UR to request full refund for cancellation (right now the cancellation clause shown CHANGED to 50% before deadline) due to this total nonresponsive attitude from the property. It would be impossible to resolve any issue with UR when I arrive the property that is in South Africa. UR Help Desk tried to contact the hotel by phone to get the 50% penalty waived but the supervisor claimed hotel refused. I told the supervisor ALL I want is the property to send me an email to confirm the booking and I would happily keep it but as of now I dont even know the booking is in place or not. Then the supervisor put me on hold and came back she was not able to contact the hotel due to it was late at night their time. This TELLS me what she told me early was a Complete LIE about hotel would not refund the penalty, less than 10 min before.

        The Help Desk supervisor finally agreed to submit a request to the “Escalation Team”, then told me it would take 4 to 5 business days to get a resolution, so to call back next Thursday morning but I would initiate the call on Tuesday or latest Wednesday instead.

        Earlier this year I rried to buy intra-Europe tickets on SAS and LOT. UR site only offered the Carry-only fares which you would pay $50 checked bag fee versus on the airlines own sites the fares with 1 checked bag were about $20 extra. For those who are not familiar with Intra-Europe travel, most airlines from regular to LCC, LIMIT the weight between 5 to 7 kg which is just about an overnight bag’s content at the most.

        Needless to say I bought the tickets on airlines’ own websites.

        Then a month ago trying to buy a MIA-YYZ ticket and found an UA fare is $40 cheaper on United site than on UR site. Turned out that United made the low fare ONLY available on United site as Expedia and other booking engineers all have $40 HIGHER than what is on UA.
        So there it went again, no way to use the UR 1.5 benefit!

        I give the above is to provide a WARNING to those who still feel the 1.5 cent is a great feature that they are willing to pay the $150 Net fee on the CSR. In reality, the 1.5c is very difficult to achieve, and for what you could use, it is FULL OF TRAPS.

        Even without this potential devaluation the CSR would be OUT from our line up when it comes to renewal. I will only need the Ink Plus and would get the CSP with 1st year AF waived and cancel the 2 CSRs in our household. I also own Ink Cash which the earning is capped so doubt Chase would touch it. We hardly ever be able to max out Freedom’s earnings anyway. Dont own FU due to no need to get more UR pts thru FU to begin with. If Chase changes the transfer ratio I suspect most would not even keep the Freedom or FU because CapOne’s Quick Silver earns the 1.5%, strictly NO Forex fee, versus all Chase Visa cards have a built in 1% Visa network fee in its exchange rate even it is 0% Forex Fee.
        Mastercard also has a more favorable Forex rate than Visa – this gives Barclays cards an edge. MC also has better rental car coverage fwiw.

        • VL says:

          Just FYI – my friends and I myself made numerous booking at Chase portal getting real 1.5x on points redemptions. Granted we booked only major airlines in US… I always check the same or similar flight options directly on the carrier’s website and on the number or OTAs… There is no guarantee that the options given on chase travel portal will include all flight options, or even would be priced the same… but in our experience for major US carriers they do. It is also quite simple to confirm your airplane ticket booking within hours of booking on the carrier’s website.

          We also never used them for hotel redemptions – flights only, because with hotels there are usually way more options to stay for less with comparable properties, and we never found hotel redemptions attractive.

          Not saying that any of the discussed changes would sit well with me, but 1.5x redemption is real.

    • Ender says:

      1.5 ccp redemption ratio doesn’t means chase has to pay 1.5 cents for every cents, they also get commissions as travel agents, which could be very profitable.

      • MoreSun says:

        Exactly! They paid $70 out of pocket for my $100 booking. And when the math doesn’t work out I suspect they don’t offer it on their portal. For instance, Disney park tickets & 1 day Universal Orlando tickets aren’t offered. I also know those particular items have very low TA commissions and therefore suspect the reason they aren’t offered is Chase can’t earn back the extra redemption value.

        • Lrdx says:

          You have to do comparison shopping, but I found that approx half the time the Chase price is as good as anywhere else, even though I have access to corporate pricing through my employer (~10-30% off of ‘non-member’ prices at every single hotel chain).

    • Lrdx says:

      JPM had $4+ billion net revenue in the credit card department last year. Yes, it’s lower than 2015 ($5+ B), but still does not look like “hemorrhaging money”.

  32. Wong says:

    Hmm, I only transfer the points as airline miles directly, and for the rest, I just cash out. The $1,500 in cash from various points is worth more to me as I don’t travel much. But I am extremely disappointed to hear the potential hit to the CSR redemption @ 1.5x on the travel portal and UR combinations in general.

  33. Rob says:

    I dunno, the 1.5x freedom unlimited is already kinda useless to me since Amex countered with the 2x Blue Biz Plus. They should probably be testing ideas that enhance value proposition to customers instead of the opposite.

    • Tavosa says:

      This… 100%. Then again depends on the amount of points you want/need in each program. I have enough UR (and almost only use them for cheap Hyatt redemptions) and not enough MR so, Blue Biz Plus will be my overall everyday card… then again depending on my needs I definitely considered the FU as my next product downgrade in a few months, cause 1.5 with 50% bonus on CSR equals 2% through portal anyways (before these changes) in the scenario where I may rather have 1.5 on the FU for Hyatt than 2 on MR for mostly airline redemption =

  34. Tyler says:

    Definitely something that would make me cancel all or most of my cards… hopefully it does t happen.

  35. Sean says:

    Oh man, I was finally about to apply for a CSR. Also, you guys are hilarious in the comments lmfao

    • Tavosa says:

      yes LOL at comments…. RAGE….

      Also, why is everyone feeling this has any language that would devalue the CSR as a stand alone product? Sure if you have a F/FU/InkCash/InkPre then this could hurt many things, or just the 1.5 redemption at best, but the card itself (CSR) is still of massive value at 3% on restaurants/travel to me…. who the hell wants citi points TBH?

      But I’ll take any damn sign up bonus… that is my #1 point making anyways so w/e

      • rick b says:

        Anyone who wastes so much money eating out that the 2% cashback vs. 3% UR makes a big difference for you….well you need to re-evaluate your financial health.

      • Lrdx says:

        You can get 3% back on restaurants and on travel without paying any annual fee..

        • Tavosa says:

          Okay first off to both rick b and Lrdx, you should read a little better before you post some highly unintelligent reply.

          To you rick b….
          I said restaurants/travel. You have no earthly idea how much I spend on either category, high or low, and you fail to even comprehend the idea of a business where you take clients out, travel to those clients in various states. On top of this, on note of our other stupid thought, 3 UR vs 2% CB is a massive, at least DOUBLE difference. I redeem UR for at least 2.5ccp/3ccp a piece every-damn-time. Making 3 UR worth 5-6% CB, so yeah. I would say it is highly worth it. You are on a travel/money saving blog and fail to see that 3% on ALL travel is the point here. Please, read more, judge uninformed less.

          Lrdx…. where do we even start with you? 3% CB is not 3 UR points, find me a no annual fee 4%….5%-6% OR HIGHER card on both those categories and then we will let you talk.

          Wow, just wow. Provide something useful to the discussion, don’t just spew so much nonsense that we are not even going to need an IQ test on you two.

          • Lrdx says:

            You need to pay $11484 annually in the 3x categories to get even of the net $150 annual fee (cashback value is ~4.3% due to not getting cashback when you pay with points) compared to 3% cashback without AF. If you are, well, good for you, keep the card. Also keep the card if you value other perks.

            Just don’t insult immediately if you don’t understand the point, you’ll just look like a moron.

          • Charlie says:

            Hey Lrdx! I can’t follow your math. Can you explain it in more detail? Thanks.

          • tinytavosa says:

            Precisely why I stopped arguing with this guy…

            To recoup $150 in an annual fee, $1250 in 3x spend nets me 3750 points, those are redeemed at 4ccp when I book my usual $200/night for 5k point Hyatt near Indianapolis Airport.

            Of course in order to get all 5k points in a 3x category I would need to spend ~$1666, but that is besides the point of the above math. In addition, admittedly, 4ccp is not usual on other hyatts I book, though I typically see at least 3ccp for any Hyatt Place with a 5k redemption.

          • mec says:

            MRs can get 2.5 redemptions pretty regularly. So the New BforB Plus would return 5% uncategorized on the first 50k.

  36. Wes says:

    I love the tough talk about people canceling all their cards. It is hilarious.

    • rick b says:

      If they implement any of the above, the no-fee cards become useless, and then it’s just a matter of how long you need to keep a fee card open to burn your stash of points. I can just easily earn 2% in cold hard cash on Spark for example, and they usually waive my AF.

      • Jesse says:

        How is that better than 2% on Double cash with no AF ever?

      • Lrdx says:

        Freedom and Ink Cash will still give you 5% cashback.

        • Tavosa says:

          Freedom on categories, not relevant unless said category is happening, also you can not get it at least 9 months of a year on the categories that some may use a lot (idk…. gas?) not to mention the $1500 cap…. Ink Cash…. 5%. I wont even explain this one to you.

          • Lrdx says:

            Are you going to cancel the Freedom because there is a $1500 limit, or the current category is not useful?

            Nice joke.

          • tinytavosa says:

            If you cancel a no annual fee with free perks, FOR ANY REASON beyond getting another bonus… you have to be the biggest moron I’ve ever heard of.

          • Guys please stop calling each other names. It’s completely unnecessary and I know you’re all capable of expressing your opinions without it. You can debate with each other, but let’s keep it civil.

          • tinytavosa says:

            Yeah yeah, couldn’t keep it civil when people keep throwing insults when to start. Though I shoulda,

            Blah. Moving on. You’re right.

          • I wasn’t trying to target you specifically tinytavosa, it was directed to everybody calling each other names.

  37. Hadley V. Baxendale says:

    Request a tutorial on how to transfer UR points from one card to another in the same account, as well as between accounts.

    Thank you!

  38. FA says:

    I really do wonder what % of Chase’s population are churners that maximize CF, Ink products’ 5x points to combine with CSR on the portal. I was always under the impression that most customers with those cards were content with cash back model but apparently there are enough churners/UR hoarders to make this a money pit for chase.

  39. Charlie says:

    I’ve been at 5/24 since last August when I got the CSR. After having CSR for a month, I realized that my rewards would increase significantly if I paired it with Freedom Unlimited. I drop from 5/24 to 3/24 in two weeks, and I had been planning to apply immediately for the FU. Now I need to rethink that strategy. I might be better off with PenFed’s new 2% Power Cash card, a card that I would have gotten when it came out six months ago, but dropping below 5/24 took priority.

    • scott says:

      You need to rethink your strategy because some people got a survey? Nothing has happened and everything you’re reading about this is conjecture.

      • Charlie says:

        Scott: Yep, I have rethought my strategy, and I will follow the golden rule of diversification henceforth. Thanks!

    • Elmer says:

      If you were dropping from 5/24 all the way to 3/24, why wouldn’t you have applied for the 2% card you desired a long time ago? For Chase, 4/24 is just as golden as 3/24. Sounds like you wasted opp, and now are panicking over possible changes that are months away at best.

  40. Jc says:

    Perhaps I am jaded but often times I find these surveys are seeking answers to questions that are not presented in the survey. My take on this is that United Airlines in particular and some of the other ultimate rewards credit card partners are pissed that they are losing out on credit card sign ups and the typical loyalty that comes from someone holding a credit card to that brand because freedom unlimited offers 1.5 points per dollar on all spend. I think that this may be negatively impacting chase’s contracts and renewals with select partners and thus what they are trying to do is couch this under the 1.5 cents per point transfer when the rack issue is airline and hotel partner transferability. That is why they proposed the 3:2 ratio or transfers from no annual fee cards to no annual fee cards.

    But I would definitely close my sapphire reserve card out if they instituted this change and would only use my freedom card at 5x points categories and would definitely reconsider my ink cash relationship as well. Other cards such as fidelity and BofA travel rewards would get my spend instead because the ultimate rewards ecosystem which they spent a years building up will be severely impacted by this change.

    • Charlie says:

      I agree that the airlines have slightly different interests from the banks in the overall credit card game. United is probably the chief beneficiary of transfers from UR to airline miles programs, so they make money whether I use my Chase United Explorer card or my Chase Sapphire Reserve card. By the way, the 1 mile per dollar spent on most airline cards is an obsolete concept from the 1990s.

    • tinytavosa says:

      People closing no annual fee cards with clearly the highest earning on any card in certain categories will never stop confusing me. If you are trying to make a point to Chase, I do not think they are going to notice.

    • mec says:

      Agree completely with your assessment of United and other partnership cards with a relatively high point value getting shafted by the current UR system. If you have a suite of Chase cards it doesn’t make any sense to spend anything on the United cards except for gas on the Business Explorer… and that’s not worth an annual fee. If you value checked bags on United flights or access to the better awards availability the card may have some potential value. But you’d think they’d be a little disturbed by the relationship.

  41. Nick says:

    They could just make Reserve offer 1.5x on all and 3x on travel and dining plus add rotating 5x categories. Realistically, I wonder what this means for that other survey offering 5x for recurring bills and mobile payment. I’m actually fine with the changes if they are limited to travel and not partner transfers but not sure how they would distinguish that.

  42. Nick says:

    Just realize 1 isn’t that bad. So if I transfer 5000 FU points to CSR, it would be $75 in travel or 5000 1:1 transfer partner but if 1 is implemented that would be $50 in travel or 5000 1:1 transfer partner?

  43. Will Bieder says:

    I don’t understand people saying that “all” no annual fees will become useless if this goes through. Yes, I agree that the Freedom Unlimited will not be particularly worthwhile (that I’d probably cancel or sock drawer), but cards like the Ink Cash? Even if you can’t transfer the 5x UR to the CSR at full value, you’re still (at worst) getting 5% cash back or getting 3.33 UR points transferred which is much better than you’ll do for office supply/telecom spending anywhere else.

    Don’t get me wrong, this would definitely be a negative, but I’ve thought for a while that their program is not sustainable. I’m taking advantage while I can.

  44. Chase, KMA says:

    Chase needs to do the following:
    Make CFU a 2% CB card with no transfer-ability, no FTF.
    Make CSR a 2 pts/$ base earner, with the option to transfer to partners. Get rid of the travel credit with a commensurate reduction in annual fee.
    Make CSP a 1.5 pts/$ base earner, option to transfer to partners.
    For CSP, CSR 1 pt = 1 cent. No bonus for travel redemptions.

    Why is it so hard for these marketing/loyalty programs to come up with an easy to understand system that eliminates unsustainable expectation?

    Since I solved your problems, Chase. Would you mind letting me back into your good graces?

    • CSR at 2pts base earned would be a massive lose for them. Those increased benefits would be an absolute nightmare for their bottom line.

      • Chase, KMA says:

        They’re currently “losing” even more with 2.25% rebate on travel when paired with CFU. Are you saying they can’t manage a 2% rebate on an Infinite card with a high annual fee?

        The secret sauce here would be a tweaking of transfer partner ratios. They could fine tune those on the back end. Yes it would be “shady”, but honestly these are banks and totally within their power to do so. It would be objectively better than the front end proposed changes that are very visible, and still convoluted.

        • You can’t possibly know they are losing more with the 2.25% rebate on travel and CFU. That requires two cards and you also need to book through their portal that they receive commission on. Your flat 2x points requires no effort at all and cannibalizes any high spending CSR accounts they currently have.

          • Chase, KMA says:

            CFU/CSR combo is almost effortless. It’s clear they’re losing more than they expected, and therefore in their crosshairs. High spending CSR accounts oblivious to rebates are in the minority. Perhaps even the majority of the spend from these accounts is in travel/dining. In which case, Chase would also come out ahead by a flat earner.

      • Lrdx says:

        Considering Visa Infinite cards almost everywhere have 2.1-2.4% interchange reimbursement fee (it’s lower only at gas pumps, charity and utility), 2% cashback is not a lose at all.

        (Based on https://www.helcim.com/us/pricing/ Visa Infinite has interchange fees even higher than what AmEx charges, everywhere, and AmEx has the fame of high interchange fees..)

        • Chase doesn’t keep the full 2.1-2.4% percent and individual merchants negotiate better rates based on volume as well. Fidelity came out awhile back saying that their 2% cash back card was an overall loss leader (including fees and interest charges) but they kept it as it built account loyalty and those with the card were more likely to be bigger deposit holders. Obviously Chase is in a different position and Citi can afford a 2% cash back card. You’re also not taking into account the price Chase pays for travel partner currencies as well.

          Premium cards in general offer lower cash back/points back rates than other cards because the idea is to offer outsized benefits value and make it back on transaction volume.

          • Lrdx says:

            Merchants don’t pay the interchange fees, at least not directly. They negotiate with their payment processor. The processor pays the interchange fees to the issuer’s bank, and some more to the payment network (card brand fee).

            Helcim charges interchange + brand fee + 0.18% – they estimate (based on the frequency of the types of cards) that the average is 1.8%+8c. Square charges 2.75% flat, so there is a room for negotiations here.

            The interchange fees are *not* negotiable. You can select to not accept Visa, if you don’t want to pay Visa fees..

            The only way you, as a merchant, can reduce the interchange fees if your own payment processor issues your own branded credit cards, where the bank would pay themselves, and you getting a cut. Well, technically, all you need is a cut, doesn’t have to be the same bank, but it’s probably easier to negotiate..

            Fidelity does not issue their own card, it’s Elan (=US Bank), so obviously they receive less.

            I said 2% cashback, not 2% UR x 1.5c/UR = 3% 🙂 That said, as other comments mentioned, they don’t pay full rate: hotel quoting $70 for the room vs the guy paid $100 to Chase. If that’s the average discount they get (I have access to corporate pricing at chains up to 40%, so I would guess the 30% is reasonable), they could give 2% / 0.7 = 2.85% total value (so with 2x point, 1.4c/UR), and still be in net positive.

            For transfers, we have no clue how much they buy miles for – it’s probably part of their co-brand CC contract, so it’s not just buying 1 mile / cent or something. They almost definitely get a better rate than any discount mere mortals can ever get. (Actually, we could probably figure this out by checking the finance reports of the airlines / hotels.)

  45. Mark says:

    Lol at the comments

    Got a good chuckle

  46. NinjaX says:

    love it.

    are we really surprised by all this? all the vets had expected something like this after they witnessed one of the most ridiculous events in CC history when the CSR came out.

    but what did all the 5/24 n00bs say? told us the CSR was the greatest CC ever and will be keeping it long term and all other CC were trash. bwahaha. this is called pulling a fast one after year 1 to obtain massive customer traction then dumping it. good work chase. i see what you did there.

    now Prestige is copying chase’s playbook. SMH…

    • Long Live CUs says:

      It’s not like Amex will save us. US Bank? They’ll just close your existing cards for buying a $25 Amazon birthday present.

      The decline will continue until the masses are culled. I’m not holding my breath

  47. quite a year: first they raised my annual fee on my CSP to $95…and now this (sort of ) deval to hit both my UR cards….so if I’m reading this right….I can still xfer points from Freedom card to Sapphire, but NOT at 1:1???

  48. I did not get the survey and searched all through my email and spam folder. I have been a CFC Holder for 14 months and a CSP holder since January if that has anything to do with anything. I remember being at my local Chase branch having a casual conversation with my bankers there back in Jan and them mentioning why I have not used all the points I have yet and I should probably convert them because banks are always making changes and they could evaluate. Well I have used half of them on a trip last months and I think I just may take these little hints and transfer my CFC points tonight to my CSP.

    Thanks For the heads up

  49. Charlie says:

    I ran some numbers through a spreadsheet. My annual spend through Chase credit cards is about 1/3 travel and dining and 2/3 “all other.” I earn 50,000 UR per year from organic spend. My yields from various credit card combinations would rank as follows:

    1. CSR + CFU under current Chase UR rules
    2. CSR + Another bank’s 2% flat rate cash back card
    3. CSR + CFU under any of the potential Chase alternatives

    If Chase changes their UR rules, the second combination is my way ahead: use CSR for travel and dining, and move “all other” spending to a non-Chase card.

    CFU would become a clone of Capital One Quicksilver under the new rules. However, if Chase were to evolve CFU into a 2% flat rate cash back card like Citi Double Cash, it might stem a migration of “all other” spending to other bank’s cards.

  50. Carter says:

    I proactively sent a message to Chase via Secure Message (I was not solicited for the survey) saying that I heard they were considering changes to the AF/non-AF UR points transfers. I stated that I thought these changes are negative and I would likely switch lenders if they went into effect. The link for feedback on my account page says “What can we do better? WE’RE LISTENING” … I hope they are actually listening.

    • Charlie says:

      Carter, please let us know how they respond. Thanks.

      • Carter says:

        The response was not very helpful.

        ————————————-

        Hello Carter,

        Thank you for contacting us about the Ultimate Reward
        points.

        I would like to share that there are no such changes. In
        future, if there are any changes you will be notified.

        If you need any other assistance, you can send us a secure
        message. We appreciate your business and thank you for
        choosing Chase.

        Thank you,
        Velanie
        Chase Email Servicing

  51. tinytavosa says:

    Sure might not be a bad idea to encourage people to be do the same.

    Clearly if this produced a negative impact, chase is already dumb enough that we could surmise that we are screwed.

    Let’s just keep praying it was a gathering asking questions that weren’t actually being asked – ones that could even help us.

  52. Yeah Right says:

    I would keep the buzz up about canceling. Chase found a way to excite social media about their CSR. If they get the same response, only negative, they may listen.

  53. Kate says:

    On option 3, would the reverse a 2:3 ratio apply? For example if you would like to transfer 10,000 points from your Sapphire Reserve account/CSP/Ink Plus, to your Freedom card, your Freedom would be credited with 15,000 points and redeemed for cash = $150?

  54. zalmy says:

    Even if they would allow that, would be terrible. As long as you have a Reserve, you’re getting a 1.5 cpp MINIMUM value anyway..

    • tinytavosa says:

      Uninformed comment. What this was allowed, finding yourself wanting to redeem points for 1.5ccp on things OUTSIDE of the chase portal or transfer partners…. would be a very normal thing for some people.

      Please think before just assuming your situation is the same as everyone’s situation…

      • tinytavosa says:

        Was this allowed***

        Also, by “outside of the chase portal or transfer partners” I mean for cash back…. If you transfer points that are 3x on travel/dining from CSR to FU or Freedom at 2:3 then you’d be getting, what, 4.5% actual cash back vs 3%? You do not see how this would have value to someone? THE BEST redemption options are not always the right options for some. If you are about to lose your car, you may want to redeem your UR at the 1ccp value and move on, for instance.

        Try to think about options, not perfections.

    • FLL says:

      A Resounding NO.

      It only achieves the 1.5 c if you redeem for travel thru the very glitch UR portal which
      1) Does not always offer best airfares.
      2) Hotel bookings often “get lost”, leaving people standing at an oversold hotel without a reservation despite UR told them they were all set.

      The 1.5c is a value in theory subject to conditions and LOTS of perils.

      Many people have tried to use this benefit and have found it very disappointing.

  55. Duke5150 says:

    Oh come on, Chase is not thinking of making any of these changes. IT’s VIRAL MARKETING. They did it with the CSReserve and are getting another bump in free visibility with this “survey”. Oh, same timing as the Citi Prestige roll out….. Why would such a successful team do something stupid….

    • Not sure how this is viral marketing. Why would you market a possible negative change? Makes no sense.

      • tinytavosa says:

        This might be the most presumptuous annoying thread to date here. I’m about to go back to the incognito click bait TPG. Maybe even MMS.

        Love the Doc but you people and your opinions. help us. Settle down.

        • Charlie says:

          Surprised to hear you say that. I have found this thread to be extremely useful and keep returning to it every so often to read the comments.

          • tinytavosa says:

            I mean a ton of name calling and over the top “I’ll cancel!” Is not productive or insightful. There has been good theorizing and in no way was my comment against that kind of stuff or you authors. No disrespect
            : )

  56. farsighted99 says:

    I transferred all my UR points from various cards (Ink, Freedom) to my CSR card; no big whoop, since that’s the only one I use these days. I hope it doesn’t happen, but better to be prepared.

    I’ve been using airfare through the Chase Travel site for quite a while never; I haven’t really had any problems getting the lower price on tickets. Went to the UK last year, Barbados and now going to Italy soon with my UR points. No problems. I get my airline miles too.

  57. VL says:

    Question / advise request:

    I have pretty extensive Chase UR Cards portfolio. 7 AF personal/business cards between me and my spouse… up until now I have kept most of the points under the accounts they have been earned, and was planning to do so as long as I can until the time comes to cancel/downgrade due to the AF at anniversary. Have not closed any yet, as all of them are less than 1 year old.

    My reasoning was do not put all eggs in one basket… but due to this rumor it may be worth transferring all points to CSR. Do not have any No AF cards with Chase as was going after the sign up bonuses all that time…

    Your thoughts?
    Thank you for your recommendations.

  58. farsighted99 says:

    I just moved all my chase UR points from my other cards to my CSR card. I have a Freedom and an Ink Plus card. I only use those two cards for the 5X point items pretty much. If I didn’t get 5X on those cards, I wouldn’t have them at all and just use the Sapphire card. I hope they don’t change the transfer capabilities.

    Right now I’m using Freedom for all the restaurants for the next couple of months. I use Ink for business supplies, cable and Internet and phone, and some gift card purchases. The rest goes on the Sapphire card for items that get 3X points. The stuff that only gets 1X goes on Amex Blue Business for 2X MR and/or Citi Double. I have a few others I use for other reasons (Hilton Hotels, SPG, other Amex cards, etc.).

    The best card though is the Chase Sapphire Reserve. I hope they don’t change it.

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