Posted by Chuck on April 20, 2018
Credit Cards

Published on April 20th, 2018 | by Chuck


Churners, Think Twice Before Applying for a Chase Credit Card

There are a few new interesting credit card offers from Chase, including an incredible 3x everywhere offer on Freedom Unlimited, and 100k bonuses on IberiaAer Lingus, and British. This is just a cautionary reminder that Chase has been difficult recently with regards to account reviews or shut downs when applying for new cards.

We wrote about this last year in the post Chase Account Freeze due to Financial Review. Briefly, Chase occasionally reviews accounts they deem suspicious. The result is an account freeze which typically leads to all your Chase accounts getting closed down.

It all starts when eyes are put on the account. This happens either when they pull your credit report due to a new Chase account application, or if they soft pull to check up on you for other reasons such as large transactions or sudden increases in spending.

Initially, there were an encouraging number of affected people who were able to get their accounts reinstated by calling, but more recently it seems that’s only sporadically true.

There are really two separate issues here. One is applying for any Chase credit card. If your credit report doesn’t look entirely ‘clean’, e.g. if you have many new accounts showing, even non-Chase accounts, or if you’ve had your credit report close with high balances, you risk getting a review or shutdown. The second issue is a sudden spike in spending. It’s sure tempting to hit the Freedom Unlimited card hard during the first year for 3x everywhere, but there’s a risk here, especially with sudden increases.

Try ramping up slowly for best results. and attempt to time applications when your credit report is at it’s best. Something to keep in mind.

You can read more shut down stories in the r/churning shut down megathread and this Flyertalk thread and in these Milesperday posts. 

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Would you be able to do a more in depth post about this ? Ex. How many recent chase cards is too much ?

We all wish we knew that one but there is no solid answer. Review the reports to get a feel for it, reading those is the only way I started to get a feeling for how much was too much.

all my chase CC accounts were closed recently. I had to encash some 250k urs.. the reason told is too many accounts opened recently. i was 13/12 and 21/24. I applied for few chase cards and was getting denied.

Did you attempt reinstatement?

Chase…oy how i hate you.

My fiance was just hit with a shutdown after applying and being approved for the Marriott business card, we got greedy and applied for the IHG card. That apparently didn’t matter as she was shut down a day or so beforehand. 4 accounts with them, 3 new in the last year, all shut down. (Personal checking recently opened seems to be ok…for now). I called in on her behalf, plead our case, and it is “under re-review” and I’ll have an answer in about another week.

They basically said it was because of too many recent accounts, showing too much “risk”. They cared about 10 accounts in the last year (not chase accounts but overall) and the total number of open accounts, 22 (i mean to ask if that includes bank accounts but i forgot).

They mentioned she has 4 accounts “closed by creditor” on her credit report (apparently these are old accounts). So i reviewed with her, and she took notes for the person that will ACTUALLY do the review on all the points i had said; good standing, never misses payments, can lower credit limit if worried about risk instead of closing all accounts, could have denied a card instead of closing all accounts, that i am now living with her so i can back up payment, and that we had recently had a hurricane and an upcoming wedding so that is one of the reasons for the many accounts.

Will see what happens….

I am super worried about possibly now have putting myself on their radar. Let’s hope not…

You should know better and 22 accounts is insanely high for one year. That is why you review your(both) credit reports and you would’ve known she didn’t pay her bills which led to those cards being shut down. If I was the bank I would’ve shut you down also. Paying for a wedding on credit is also another stupid idea. You have a lot to learn.

Ok larry , well first of all, I have only been doing this for a year, so I am sorry that I didn’t prepare well enough for Chase shutdowns to your standards.

The accounts that were closed on her report were for non-use, not because she didnt pay her bills. She has no bad remarks on her report re: not paying.

Re: paying for the wedding ,we aren’t ACTUALLY paying for the wedding with cards (though doing a fair amount of hotel booking on cards), I was just giving the person a reason why someone might have taken out so many cards. Maybe it was a smart thing to say, maybe not (i realized afterwards probably not), thought the rep made a point to say that their department is nothing like card approval or recon. They consider “risk”. When she repeated things back to me, it sounded like she took a note that we took out a lot of cards for “rewards” because of all the charges we had for renovations and weddings. When i thought about that, i said to myself, ok, that doesn’t sounds good for card approval, but it does make sense as far as showing we aren’t :”risky”… just “greedy?”

Regarding the number of accounts, i said 22 TOTAL, not 22 in the last year. And i am fairly certain that includes bank accounts.

10 accounts (again i think includes a few bank accounts) opened in the last year.

Anyway, just sharing my experience to hopefully help others. Very sorry for not living up to your standards Larry. However you have a lot to learn about polite behavior and community interaction.

Good rebuttal Brian, we appreciate the datapoint, even if Larry is still on the struggle bus this morning.

Thanks for the data!

Hey Brian, thanks for the data point. Did you also post on the reddit shutdown reports thread (recent post sounds the same as yours)? Are you pretty confident it was the business application that caused the shutdown? I havent applied for any new accounts in the last 3 months, in hope of applying for chase marriott business and not getting shutdown, and it seemed like most chase shutdown data points were from personal cards. But your post has made me rethink this and maybe I should just leave chase completely alone.

Dan , I did not post on reddit. So that tells you that this is a pattern if my story sounds like others….

I am not sure the Marriott Biz card is what triggered the review or not. They were very careful not to say WHAT triggered the review when i called, only that it happens periodically, and has NOTHING to do with the “application approval” department and they care about different things.

They are worried about “RISK” according to them. If i was in your shoes, i would stick to amex biz cards as needed until around July (that will keep your report clean from new accounts, and hoepfully not HP as well). And THEN apply for the marriott biz card.

Really the only risk in that method is the possibility that they change the sign-up bonus on the marriott biz to something worse, but i don’t see that happening.

Hope that helps!

@Brian C looking for more DP Your Biz Cards – are you fully self employed or a “business owner” with super thin side gig income/expenses (i.e. you don’t file a Schedule C with your 1040)?

I have a full time job, but do report side gig to IRS as sole proprietor.

I second Brian’s last sentence.

He clearly said 10 accounts within one year, 22 accounts open total… not 22 accounts within one year.

Oh, come off it, Larry. The OPs situation isn’t any different than thousands of churners out there. The only difference is that they ran into what appears to be some tightening standards on Chase’s end. For accuracy’s sake, as Tom notes below, it was 10 new accounts in the last year; the bills were paid just fine, the closed accounts mentioned were due to non-use; and, here’s a shocker, paying for a wedding on CC isn’t any different than paying for any other good or service, the lone qualifier being (as it is for every other purchase one makes on credit) do you have the money to pay it off immediately? I’m glad you’re on DoC, though; it sounds like you’re the one with a lot to learn.

I’m honestly shocked with all the AI Algorithms that this hasnt happened sooner or on a much larger scale.

I posted this below in a recent DOC Marriott thread.
“It’s quite possible that shutdowns, FWIW from what I’ve aggregated from more than a few DP that Chase has now raised the bar beyond 5/24 and is now much more HP sensitive for those that don’t fit the typical breakout risk profile (i.e. a lot of us churners that have mortgages as well as one or more CU CC but nonetheless are matches for the rest of the breakout behavior). This is only a conclusion/inference I’m drawing from multiple recent DP. YMMV.

The DPs that I’ve aggregated seems to indicate that Chase is giving much more scrutiny to Biz card applications for those who are >5HP+/12mo for CIP, Chase Ink Business Cash 5HP/12Mo but unable to pinpoint why for DP for >5HP/12mo for the CIBC.
Recon calls shouldn’t be an issue for excessive HP that are Car/Mortgage shopping related but multiple HPs for CC apps in those time frames could be the tipping point to be flagged for human eyes review instead of an instant approvals (prior auto approve based on minimum FICOs threshold, utilization, and stated incomes, AAoA, etc).

Which seems to be them general direction that most who are over 5/24 have re-focused their attention with regards to Chase cards and bonuses.

Note: these are not auto DQ or denials (i.e. 5/24,etc) but more just DP that are indicating/trending to higher TD for those that fall into the criteria, as well as possibly flagging for temp/perm shutdown.

Non-Shutdown related but DPs gathered about Inquiry sensitive biz cards (Not auto DQ, but more DP that are indicators of denial trends) some BofA biz cards; Biz Adv Rew MC <8HP in 6Mo.

Amex Biz cards SPG biz Amex <3HP/6Mo, Pt Delta SkyMiles <3HP/6Mo, Gold Delta SkyMiles <3HP/6Mo, Amex Biz Green Rewards <3Hp/6Mo, Amex Plum Biz <3HP/6Mo, Blue Biz+ <4HP/6Mo, AMEX Biz Pt Open <5HP/6Mo, HH Amex <6HP/6Mo, BGR Open <6HP/6Mo, Delta Reserve <6HP/6Mo, Simply Cash+ Biz <6HP/6Mo

Capital One Spark Miles Select Biz <6HP/6Mo.

As DOC is far more civil than reddit, I'm not even bothering sharing this on reddit (even tho some info I collected is from reddit DP), but DOC has taught me more than any other site so this is my feeble attempt at paying it forward.

Thank you! This is super helpful!

I just applied and got approved for the Chase Southwest Premier CC. But I got absolutely hammered by the customer service rep for half an hour. It was pretty clear his goal was to dig for info to deny. I was at 2/24 and he really questioned why I needed these 2 prior personal cards. I also have the Ink cash and Ink preferred, so he needed a serious explanation as to why I needed another business card. My business is very legit, a medical practice. Also, we bought a new house 2 months ago. I just can’t express how aggressively the customer service rep drilled me.

If given the option, I’d pay for a wedding on a credit card. NOT charging it (and paying it off immediately) is leaving points on the table, which is a sin in this hobby…

exactly–not to mention cc protection when the cake baker, dj, or photographer screws up and won’t refund.

Larry: No matter what you think about Brian’s choices (which seem absolutely fine to me, btw), the whole idea behind this website is to share information that helps people. There was no reason to chastise — please try to be more civil in the future.

I have more than 22 cards in last 14 months. This is a blog for churners. Really uncalled for post.

And you should learn to not stick your nose in other people business. How he pays for wedding is none of your business. Oh and Churners have been doing far more than 22 in a year. This wasn’t an issue with Chase until “recently”. Up until 5 or so months ago, almost every shudown of this type got reversed.

Banks change their policy/rule all the time and some unfortunatrly people become sacrificial DP. Everyone else should read DP, thank those who share their unfortunate shutdown (not berate them like you are) learn from the shared DP, and adapt accordingly.

Thanks for the DPs. This sport is very YMMV and there do not always exist hard and fast rules.

Ignore posts like larry. He did not provide useful info like your post did. We learn more from your stories, than non-constructive critical feedback like from larry.

> If your credit report doesn’t look entirely ‘clean’, e.g. if you have many new account showing, even non-Chase accounts

Chase also looks into # OF INQUIRES AND TOTAL # OF ACCOUNTS ALL TOGETHER. Source: been shut down twice.

If Chase sees you as a risk, they let you go. Your relationship may not matter. People with 20+ year Chase history have been told to pound sand, people under 5/24 have been shut but at the same time someone with 40+/24 has been reversed. The worst part is that one can’t profile these shutdown and/or reinstatement because they’re YMMV case and often largely depend on profile of whoever is profiling you.

my 2 cent.

P.S. I expect to see a signup bonus on FU WITH 3x. I would wait.

Do they care about number of bank account? as in checking/saving

but they cannot see (and/or care?) about business credit cards? (except for ones they have issued to you), right?

Great question! I quickly have switched to business cards for this and a few reasons….

First off, not ALL business cards are NOT reported to your personal credit. I believe capital one, and a few others get reported, so be careful.

Amex and Citi business cards are not reported to personal credit so that is a good place to start. From what i can tell the only worthwhile Citi business card to sign up for is the Citi AAdvantage (my Fiance and I both got that a few months ago). Now is a great time because you can match for 75,000 miles on only $3k spend.

Amex has turned out to be a godsend! SEVERAL business card approvals AND no hard pulls (longstanding relationship with Amex). Instant approvals, worked great!

Also, business cards usually require a higher spend. Since that is EXACTLY what i am running in to right now with renovation and wedding charges, I thought it was a good time to take out a card that requires a $15k spend, something i normally wouldn’t meet. No HP, doesn’t show on credit. perfect for avoiding chase shutdown (in this case it was the Chase Simply plus i went with, after already doing the SPG biz for my fiance and I when it was 35,000 SP on $7,000 spend).

Planning to only take out a couple more churned AA Personal cards this year, and CNB visa infinite.

Depends upon the bank. Some (Capital One, for example) report business cards on personal credit report. There are a few others that do also. Beyond that, it’s usually just the hard pulls from business cards that they see.

They can’t see biz cards but they care a lot. That is unsecured debt tied to the cardholder by a personal guarantee.

As to how they know, they don’t. I have a feeling they’re guessing based on HPs. After all, you don’t get 5 Amex/Citicard HPs from signing up for cable or a background check. You opened 0-5 new credit cards.

I really want the new 3x unlimited offer. Wife is at 3/24 last one 8 months ago (only one in the last year). She’s at 2% utilization and 800+ score. Do they look at total household accounts as well? I have 4 Chase cards and she has 3. We Don’t do a ton under her accounts, but would likely shift a bunch to the Unlimited 3x. What’s the likelihood of pissing Chase off? As much as I want it, it’s not worth risking everything.

What is on her credit report matters. If she only has 3 new credit cards in the last 24 months across all issuers I’d go ahead & roll the dice on the CFU. (Unless those 3 cards were all Chase cards acquired in the last 12 months.)

i really dont think people should worry at all about a shutdown when under 5/24…

I disagree. There have been reports of shutdowns from people under 5/24 but who apparently hit too hard too fast. Opened like 4 or 5 Chase cards in 12 months, and for this process Chase does take into account a person’s Chase business cards.

Absolutely not true. I have seen two DPs in the last month (as recent as yesterday) where folks go shutdown being under 5/24 while applying for Chase business cards. And Chase gave the same “too many new accounts” reason for shutting down both of them. Neither one of them was going fast with Chase personal cards and both of them were actively getting business cards for a few months. Maybe its just the high number of inquiries that pissed Chase off. Hence I believe this shit is completely random and every churner out there should be cautious when hitting Chase.

I am in the same situation as your wife. Keep us posted on what happens.

All my chase accounts were shut down last week. The reason given to me was something like “Chase affiliate decides to close my account” which I don’t know what that means. I didn’t open chase account recently, but I did open Amex Mercedes Platinum last month.

That looks like something different. Pull your credit report to see if something new is attached to it.

Also think twice if you’ve been denied by Chase in the last few months. A couple reports are from those who were denied a few months ago, applied again recently & were approved, then got shutdown.

Good point MoreSun. If one is not approved for a Chase CC app, let things cool off and wait 6 months or more before applying for another Chase CC..

Actually the most recent shutdown on r/churning did wait 6 months to get CIP after n MPE denial. So waiting doesn’t really help. Chase is coming for all of us.

How about product change (downgrade from CSP to CFU) Will there be any risk with this?

Does anyone know if there have been any Chase shutdown DPs after being pre-approved for a Chase credit card in branch? I’ve been restraining myself for the past 6 months or so, I think I’m ready to head to the branch soon and see what they’ve got for me.

Is there any indication that churning the Checking / Savings offers are a negative factor? Although I’m past the 180 days on my accounts opened last year, I’m considering leaving them open

I don’t remember anyone mentioning that as a factor yet.

Thanks. I haven’t seen any direct linkage to credit card apps / shutdown either.

I think it can draw attention when you open new checking / saving accounts the following year, but doesn’t seem to really have any impact (fingers crossed)

Well, you can listen to all the genius on here or let current accounts simmer for a while before reassessing. We did a lot of the checking/saving bonus opps, but stayed away from CC offers and had no problem. Easily made as much as cc churners last year. Now sit and wait for a while.

I want the CFU but I don’t think I can get auto approved. I would need to have credit moved from one of my other cards. FICO is 800+, I have CSR, Freedom, 2 Ink Cash, 1 Ink Bold & 3 Chase bank accts, I am under 5/24 and haven’t applied for any cards in awhile. Am I safe to go for the CFU?

I’m in a similar situation with respect to wanting the Freedom Unlimited. Just dropped from 3/24 to 2/24, scores are in the low 800s but overall credit limit on seven cards is 130% of income. My two Chase cards account for 40% of my overall credit limit. Let us know what happens.

You can preemptively lower your credit limit on your existing cards. This sometimes helps to get auto-approval.

Well, the question is what happens when you call or SM to lower your credit limit? Wouldn’t that put eyes on the account? I would like to lower my CL on couple of accounts, but afraid that might have some unintended consequences

I got 3 chase and another 2 amex cards in the past 4 months. Lowered the limit with Chase by $7k since the last approval. It’s been a bit more than 3 weeks and all my accounts are alive.

Good to hear that DP.

Similar DPs. Have CF, CSR, CSP, CIP. Lowered CL via SM on all but CIP and downgraded CSR to CFU. No issues 3 weeks in.

I’ve never had issue lowering credit limit on my cards. What I did have an issue with was reallocating existing credit to different cards. I had 5 cards opened and requested to move credit from one card to another, and then my total credit limits got slashed by 15k, and i called in saying what gives and they said they did a soft pull due to my request and decided they needed to lower my credit limits (likely due to a temporary spike in my utilization rate). In retrospect, i guess im just thankful that they didnt shut down any accounts (this was over a year ago and before the rash of shutdown reports)

I am also in a similar situation, except I don’t have any Chase bank accounts. But I do have 3 personal & 2 business cards. The last bus card was the Marriott and I just opened it in Feb. The last card I opened before that was last September.

I REALLY want this 3x CFU, but I am really trying to go for the Chase quartet and put almost all my spending on those…so I am scared to death to get shut down.

I dont get Chase, they cant have it both ways. When they are approving a card, they should take “risk” into consideration. If at the time of card approval if it was too risky, then simply deny it. Pretty sad for a big bank their business practices.

There’s two models being applied. The first is general default risk which can be adequately measured by FICO. The second is a model for BustOut that can be tricked by a high FICO. They could just run both models and deny but it makes more sense not to do so. Simple denying from the BustOut model would block some people they want to grant credit to and, more importantly, would prevent them from doing these complete account closures for folks they don’t want to do business with.

Pretty random, as I have not been shut down but my girlfriend with less applications and cards has been shut down by both amex and chase. Chase was a more urgent concern as she had a checking account with them but she was able to get everything restored after she spoke to a private client adviser (her dad’s friend) but Amex basically banned her to which I can only assume her income didnt match the spend through the card

She was MS?

I haven’t seen one DP this year where Chase mentioned wrong usage (read MS) of account to be the reason for shutdown. They just care about your total accounts and that’s it.

Do any of you know if closing a Chase business CC account and replying for the same in a month or so would be a red flag? And since I am asking about this, let me ask you if you know if I’d get the bonus in this situation: Initially I opened Chase Business Plus and got the bonus more than 24 month ago, then product changed to the Cash card. Now I am thinking to close that card and reapply to get the bonus of $500 for the same Cash card. Would it work? Thanks!

you need to not get the bonus for 24 months per their rules… you should be good to go.

He is good to go in terms of being eligible for the bonus again. But there’s no guarantee he will be approved or then won’t get shut down. That depends on how his credit report looks

Wondering if anyone has considered a CFPB complaint. Although everyone understands the need for risk management, JPMC takes the whole concept to an extreme. Especially when they allow people to open deposit accounts, but then immediately close them upon “review.” Should they do their due diligence before account approval?

JB from San Diego
JB from San Diego

Thanks for the heads up DOC and everyone else for the data points!! This is very worry some, so i am going to wait before applying for the Marriott buz. I just started accumulating cards (cc & charge cards) since last July. I have 13 +/- 1 and have an eye on the Marriott Bus since that would get me to the 270 Marriott package, but for now, i will hold off. This is an awesome post and i have had lots of help here…thx DOC!! I am an armature and just started looking into miles and points to keep my travel to Europe cost down for many years to come.

btw..LC is amazing!!! 😉

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