Posted by Chuck on June 11, 2015
Credit Cards chase

Published on June 11th, 2015 | by Chuck

163

Chase Credit Card Churning – Living with the New Reality (5/24 Rule)

Background

We’ve discussed the fact that many people are reporting having problems being approved for new Chase credit cards. Most reports that I’ve seen indicate that it’s real and it’s bad. 

Chase seems to have severely changed their approval criteria. Specifically, if they see too many new accounts on your credit report they won’t approve you for a new card. This is even if the new accounts are non-Chase accounts. They always mention a 2-year time frame; if there were too many new cards opened within the past 2 years it’s much harder to be approved.

Basically, they’re looking at your credit report to see if you’re a churner. If you are, they’ll deny you no matter how good your credit is. And even for a basic card like the Freedom.

Typically, Chase is very good about approving a card by shifting credit from another card. For our issue here this doesn’t work.

Note that there are a few success stories in getting the cards despite having many new accounts, implying that it’s not a hard rule.

5/24

How many new accounts is too many?

Many mention the magic number of five. Having five or more new accounts will trigger denial. This number is mentioned in the Flyertalk wiki as well, and is now known as “the 5/24 rule.”

Chase Co-Branded Cards & Business Cards

Chase is only targeting Ultimate Rewards-earning cards like the Sapphire and Freedom. Business cards like INK are not included, although there is some spill-over effect there. And co-branded cards from hotels and airlines (like Southwest and United) are not included either.

Apparently the UR cards cost them more and they want to stop churners from causing them such losses. These cards are also the low-hanging fruit since it’s so easy for someone to cash out on the rewards and these cards were thus ‘abused’ more than the others.

Update: Business cards (i.e. INK) will have the 5/24 rule starting around March 2016, and Co-brands will have the 5/24 rule starting around April 2016. See also Is 5/24 In-Effect Yet on INK and Co-brands?.

Do Authorized User Cards Count toward 5/24?

When someone adds an authorized user (AU) on their credit card, the card shows up on the credit report and does affect the AUs credit score, See How Does Being An Authorized User Affect Your Credit? The account will usually pull up even when the AU was added without having given in their Social Security Number.

It appears that (somewhat illogically) even AU cards are included in the new Chase rule and having new AU accounts will deter you from being approved for new Chase cards. (This based on a Reddit data point.)

This is terrible news for someone who likes to add AU cards  on their Amex accounts in order to maximize Amex Offer promotions. Some Chase cards need an AU added to maximize the bonus as well. It’s possible that using a nickname could save the card from hitting the credit report. Also, an AU from a different address than your own may keep it off the report as well. (These suggestions are just of the top of my head.)

Since a lot is dependent on the Chase rep to decide, some reps may be smarter and not include AU cards into the equation of new accounts. There is one report of someone who was able to convince the rep not to count AU cards in the calculation.

Do Business Cards Count toward 5/24?

Do business credit cards count toward the 5/24 rule? Many card issuers don’t report business cards on the credit report and the only clue is the hard inquiry.

With regards to the new Chase rules, it seems that the main issue is the new accounts, not the inquiries on the report. As noted, AU cards do count despite the fact that there’s no inquiry on the credit report. As such, business cards can likely go undetected on that end and won’t count toward the max-account limit.

Note, however, that Chase business cards would probably count. Since they’re issued by Chase themselves, they’ll obviously know about it and they may count it toward the account-max.

Account Closures

Here’s another data point: A friend of mine has 3 INKs and applied for 2 more. Not only did they deny his applications, the reconsideration rep forced him to close two of his three existing cards.

I’ll repeat that: the rep denied his applications and forced him to close 2 of his existing cards.

Ultimately, he was able to call back and get one of the closed accounts reinstated. We wish him luck on getting the other one reinstated as well.

This case is likely an anomaly; still it could have us thinking twice before calling up and trying to convince Chase that we are worthy of another card. It may be better to lay low and keep what we have.

Summary

  • 5 or more new cards can trigger denial (occasionally even less can be problematic)
  • Even non-Chase cards count to this number
  • AU cards should not count toward the 5-card limit, but the reps often do count them unless you specifically ask them not to
  • Reps seem to have the power to approve you with more than five, but that usually doesn’t happen
  • Shifting credit lines doesn’t help
  • Co-branded cards are unaffected
  • Business cards (INK) are unaffected
  • Business cards shouldn’t count toward the 5-card max, but Chase business card may count

Final Thoughts

All-in-all, the news with Chase is terrible and it really changes the way we approach applying and keeping Chase credit cards, see Thoughts on Keeping the Chase Sapphire Card. The important thing for most of us is to keep at least one premium Chase product open so that it will be possible to use the points for travel redemptions. The Freedom and INK Cash cards can’t be used for for travel redemptions unless you have a premium product like the Sapphire Preferred or INK Plus. Paying the annual fee on the Sapphire is starting to make a whole lot of sense in many cases, unless you have an INK Plus to use for travel transfers.

So which route do we go? Limit our new accounts or keep churning and just avoid Sapphire and INK?

Being that there are so many credit cards out there to choose from, including many co-branded Chase cards, keeping up the churning would seem wiser. These cards are, however, from the best available and it’s definitely a big hit to the hobby.

Notes

Two important notes:



163 Responses to Chase Credit Card Churning – Living with the New Reality (5/24 Rule)

  1. Helixcon says:

    Correction: Ink Plus points definitely do transfer to travel partners. You’re thinking of the Ink Cash.

  2. Tom Brady says:

    Hey Chuck good article. Btw I think you mean “INK Cash” instead of “INK Plus,” when you mention a card that can’t be used for travel redemption. (Assuming that by “travel redemptions” you mean transferring to transfer partners).

  3. tm says:

    The Freedom and Ink Cash Plus cards can’t be used for for travel redemptions unless you have a premium product like the Sapphire Preferred, Ink Plus, or Ink Bold (no longer offered to new applicants).

  4. Amar k says:

    Uh oh…my first chase card ever is the Ink Plus, I can’t use these points until I open a CSP?

  5. MM says:

    I just got denied a UA chase bus card because of too many new accounts. Tried 3 recons. No dice.

    • Raj says:

      Same thing happened to my mom and dad for this same card. I thought biz cards were easier, but both were rejected and recon didn’t help.

      • NN says:

        Just got denied with a ‘too many 2 year account’ letter despite having only 2 chase cards with a 779 credit rating.

  6. David says:

    I can vouch for this. Was turned down and told the same by diff rep when HUCA many times on my Ink Cash app…..too many credit inquiries….that’s it…even I have a perfect credit score of 800.

    I guess it’s time to close some of my old Chase cards then…I have 7 cards with them (personal and business) so far now. Will keep the one that I need such as Freedom, CSP and Ink, and close the Southwest, Ritz, United one. Chuck what is your thought on this move?

    • George Smiley says:

      I don’t see how this will help. You’ll lose th aaoa and what Chase is concerned about are new accounts not total accounts.

    • Chuck Sithe says:

      Why not keep the ones you have?

    • Geoff Stuart says:

      David,

      Don’t want to break your bubble, but 800 is not perfect anymore; 850 is the new 800.

      I’m at 833 and still got denied for the Bus card; two other Bus cards granted this year. They would not budge on reconsideration line.

      Always close the SW card so you can re-apply in 2 yrs and get the Companion Pass again. Best value in the sky, but I hope the new card rules don’t kill this b/c you need two cards (personal and bus) to get the 100K miles.

      Geoff

  7. travel light says:

    I have had exactly these criteria cited to deny a Chase co-branded card application recently. Analyst counted all applications for two years, including non-Chase applications, and applications as AU. Says they want to see some payment history on the new accounts. That means that opening new non-Chase accounts would likely affect future Chase applications.

    Under this new regime, in addition to keeping a premium card open to permit transfers, another consideration is how to keep a WN companion pass.

  8. Parkerthon says:

    Well Chase has gone off the deep end and I hope they drown. Everything about their methodology smacks of some bean counter idiots in finance making the call on this. I would expect the bloggers eventually respond and get off the Chase bandwagon. It’s a really bad move to recommend anyone to apply for Chase cards when they likely will result in a denial(and wasted hard pull) for their average reader. It’ll also be intriguing because the only reason Chase cards grew so much in popularity so much is because of churners and points chasers that speculatively valued UR points so highly. It’s funny, they are literally eliminating their entire popularity base from access to their products with these new standards. I wonder if the mega bloggers will reveal the truth.

    • MrWho says:

      So, everything is Chase’s fault? They are running business & if the business is causing “loss”, what would you do?

      • Parkerthon says:

        They’re entitled to do whatever they want. However they are certainly not taking a loss here. Maybe on a fraction of consumers they lose but credit cards for US banks are huge revenue generators as a whole. They are simply in an ultra competitive market and having a hard time meeting their numbers so they brought in the bean counters to fix it. The problems with banks and your comment is you can’t treat consumers like financial assets which you treat accordingly callously. That is completely disconnected from the human and social side of things in the economy as a whole. Simply weeding out consumers that don’t perform to their standards based on a few attributes that only tell part of the story anyway means you’ll harm the brand and ultimately growth. Blogs run by and read by the very same people you would call a loss helped propel UR pts to the top of the list. Their valuation is artificial and was popularized by them. Chase doesn’t seem to think much of that. Honestly I don’t care much for churning as much as holding cards that I do well on. In this case I already have the core Chase cards so this doesn’t effect me. I just think Chase is making a really dumb move here and I’m looking forward to seeing the results.

        • MrWho says:

          “However they are certainly not taking a loss here.”

          Your opinion or fact? If it’s a fact, please provide the balance sheet.

          • David says:

            “Our analysis shows how every $1b of card signup bonuses could generate $25b of billed business/$3b of loans and 27 cents of EPS over 12 months.”

            http://blogs.barrons.com/stockstowatchtoday/2015/06/09/american-express-why-the-loss-of-costco-might-not-be-a-total-disaster/

          • Parkerthon says:

            Hold on, let me post a balance sheet from Chase Bank. It might take me a minute and I might crash this blog since they have almost 3 trillion in assets. Lol… in all seriousness though…

            Fact. I don’t have time to go pull up Chase’s public financials to show you credit cards make them money, but it’s there and you can find it with a little google magic on your own time. It’s common knowledge.

            Opinion: They’re trying to make it more profitable by extracting the less profitable consumers even though they tend to be the mavens that many less informed folks turn to when considering credit cards. I don’t object to that, they’re a business and that’s what they do, seek profit and growth. I just think this approach was heavy handed and will do them more harm than good. They’ll sink to the bottom and other banks will grab market share while the worlds marches on.

    • R. says:

      Since these bloggers target mostly newbies with their “OMG CSP 3x Dining on Friday” propaganda, sadly they won’t be affected by this at all.
      But it does makes sense for newcomers to be getting CSP and Freedom among their first 5 cards.

      • Parkerthon says:

        Agreed. I wouldn’t tell my family and friends not to get Chase cards simply because they don’t like people like me. 🙂 It’s still obnoxious to see TPG valuate UR points so high, see them quoted in Chase Sapphire commercials, and then say absolutely nothing about it even though they do talk about churning often as a strategy for gaining more points.

    • Rich says:

      I don’t understand how that would be. The bonuses are tempting and there will be new people coming to this site and learning about this game we keep playing. These new recruits are what keeps people blogging about it. Chase just doesn’t care for these people who know too much about the game.

  9. AU1 says:

    “[T]he reconsideration rep forced him to close two of his three existing cards.”
    I don’t understand how that happened. Why didn’t he just say no and hang up? How can they force you to close an account?

    • Parkerthon says:

      I was thinking same thing. Just feign cell signal drop. I’m guessing once they are manually reviewing your account you’re already in their line of sights and simply hanging up may make them more determined to shut everything down or invoke a freeze of some sort until you talk to them.

      • Chuck Sithe says:

        Yeah, I don’t know what would have happened if he hung up. Maybe they would have frozen his accounts or something.

        • AU1 says:

          Under what grounds? They approved him for those accounts.

          • Aahz says:

            Under the grounds that they’re no longer interested in serving him.

            The credit card contract you “sign” when applying doesn’t include a duration – every issuer can close any account without cause at any time, just as any consumer can choose to close their account at any time.

          • Chase can close your accounts at any time for any reason.

  10. Mike says:

    I just recently applied for the Chase Freedom with the increased signup bonus. I’ve had Sapphire Preffered since the day it started as I had an older product that converted to it. I haven’t opened a lot of cards over the last few years except Citi AA and Barclays US Air since I was chasing those point before they combined. (It worked too, 350k and I haven’t flown AA in years). 800 level credit.

    I was just informed by the reconsideration agent that I was declined due to too many credit applications. He was very clear and emphasized that this was only in regards to the Chase line of products, Freedom, Ink and Sapphire and that I was free to apply for any other products. This is very disappointing as the Sapphire has been my main card and I love UR. I am reconsidering my loyalty & really hope that Citi is able to add AA to their ThankYou partners as this would likely enable me to make the jump.

    • COLIN says:

      “I haven’t opened a lot of cards over the last few years except Citi AA and Barclays US Air… It worked too, 350k and I haven’t flown AA in years).”

      So, you obtained 350,000 AA miles without having flown AA at all and you did this entirely through credit card applications and acceptance and you say that you “haven’t opened a lot of cards over the last few years….”

      Ha Ha!

      What gall.

      Yes, you might not have opened up that many compared to the hogs that like to post here, but you sure opened a lot of cards in the last few years, dontcha’ think???

      Little wonder they rejected you.

      And as for you throwing around that word — “LOYALTY” — that’s a joke, right??

      Sure have shown a great deal of “loyalty” to AA over the years, right??

      You have been hoisted on your own petard!!

      No doubt that some credit card issuers will have you, but it would appear that at least for the moment, the gravy train of ABUSE is over at Chase!

  11. Trevor says:

    Wow, just wow. I was just about to come due for another Chase Sapphire Preferred, but may just wait on that… As far my Chase strategy, I’m thinking I’ll grab the cards I’ve been eying — the Hyatt CC (although I was really hoping they’d introduce a spend threshold to attain Diamond status), and either United or Marriott business card (because, you know, why not?)…

  12. Hunter says:

    Another unfortunate introduction is they’re taking meticulous notes on calls now, so HUCA no longer works. Denied for an Ink Plus, regrouped and called back and the CSR had all the info from my last two calls and had no interest in discussing any new reasons I gave.

  13. scott says:

    What about maximizing chances for an auto approval? Any shot at an auto approval for ink cards or does that never happen? Does anyone have any experience here?

    • Chuck Sithe says:

      I am curious about auto-approval. My understanding right now is that the system detects many new accounts and won’t auto-approve Freedom or CSP (possibly INK is easier, as mentioned in the post).

      If anyone got an auto-approval on CSP or Freedom or INK with 5+ new accounts, we’d love to hear.

  14. COLIN says:

    I greatly appreciate your blog but I am not a fan of those who churn credit cards and therefore, I am wholly supportive of Chase doing this. As such, I agree with Mr. Who and accept that I am in the minority here.

    I think that a reasonable approach to “churning” by actually holding onto the card and actually paying the annual fee for at least a year will probably prove helpful in permitting Chase to accept your new credit card applications. Those who don’t like the idea — TOO BAD. PIGS FEED — HOGS GET SLAUGHTERED.

    There is a reasonable middle between those who just keep the card forever, and those who churn, churn, churn. Perhaps, if you hold onto the card, the retention bonus may be sufficient for you to reduce the annual fee to what you consider a reasonable level.

    • Lantean says:

      have you ever gotten retention bonus from Sapphire? I have never heard of it…

      also, just this week I called twice to ask for retention bonus for Ink Bold… both times i was told flat out NO… that was not the case in the past… they used to offer 10 k bonus points for $5k spend in 3 months as anniversary retention… but not any more sadly.

      • Chris says:

        They still give credit of $95 if they like you. I just called last week. And, I have spent no more than 6-7K total last year with that card.

        • Chris says:

          That was for the INK Bold

          • Jonathan says:

            I got the same offer for Ink Bold : I got credit of $95 10 days ago. I have spent about 9K last year .

        • Lantean says:

          i have spent way more than that on the card… at least $20k… maybe they didn’t like the fact that most of it was at Staples.

          • COLIN says:

            Yes, that may be it. Perhaps they don’t like MS people as well and think they can make more profit off those who actually have “legitimate” charges and those who use their cards reasonably.

            Obviously, I don’t feel sorry for you and your ilk though, for their decision to weed out your sort can only benefit those who take a measured approach to these bonuses.

    • Sandra says:

      But Chase isn’t just denying churners. It is basically anyone who they consider has opened too many new cards in the past 2 years. I just started signing up (based on the lure of the sign up bonuses) for new cards last year. I have not gotten rid of one single card I signed up for – so no churning. Every one of them has been the first time I have ever gotten that card despite having a long and excellent credit history. I’ve gotten about 7 cards in that time with 3 of them being Chase. My husband is an authorized user on most of them. He got denied (reason given was too many new credit cards in past two years) when he applied for the Chase Freedom despite never having had one before. I have never gotten a card and then closed it to avoid an annual fee and neither has he. Fairly “regular” (in contrast to churners) are also being caught in Chase’s new way of doing business. My husband has been a long time Chase customer (he has had a Slate card for years), has an excellent credit history, has never had a Freedom card, has never closed a card with any creditor to avoid an annual fee, has a credit history with his oldest card being almost 30 years ago, and he was still denied the Freedom card. That is NOT a hog, not even a pig. Chase is going to end up alienating customers with this new road they are taking.

      • COLIN says:

        You mean you did not have the OPPORTUNITY to get rid of one single little card.

        You all make me laugh.

        You were intending to churn the card, as well. You just got caught with your panties down, that’s all!

    • Paul says:

      Oh Gawd. Another holier-than-thou bloviator. Chase doesn’t owe many churners who played the game anything :). Some of us already received a life time’s value out of their cards 🙂

      The pathetic thing is we have a guy telling us we should pay the annual fees on cards and actually put spend on them, just like moronic sheeple do…

    • JACK says:

      The heck with that. I a proud MS’er and churner and Im here to get mine.

  15. chris says:

    The only surprising thing here is why it took so long for Chase and other banks to start cracking down on churners. With the plethora of miles/points/credit card-pushing bloggers out there, did anyone really think all these free miles could keep coming so easily? It was just a matter of time. And it’s only going to get worse for churners. But again, I’ve always been amazed that banks have continued to let this go on for as long as they have. But it looks like all the bloggers out there have finally saturated the market with the good word and made the practice nearly mainstream now, enough to finally force the banks to do something about it. Better enjoy what’s left while we can…

    • Mike says:

      Couldn’t agree more. Google anything closely related to credit cards and the screen fills with MMS, FTG, etc. Geez Mommy points was on Nightline a few months back! How long will banks sit idly by watching folks abuse their system before they take steps to counteract it

      • Parkerthon says:

        They didn’t take action until now because the market wasn’t so saturated and competitive. Now that every bank is fighting tooth and nail to gain market share by offering silly huge sign up bonuses, suddenly the churners and points chasers are an issue? Yeah right. The issue is competition and the policy is simply a system that’s intolerant of it.

      • NN says:

        “How long will banks sit idly by watching folks abuse their system before they take steps to counteract it”

        I agree! Commercial/Wall St. banks are there to rob the avg joe through fractional reserve banking and usury, not the other way around. The nerves of these peasants!!

    • Parkerthon says:

      I’m amazed the entire swipe fee business model is still standing. If we really want to shut this circus down we should just cap swipe fees like Europe. The reality is up until now the system has served the banks well and consumers that learned to maximize the benefits. Now consumers have figured it out and the banks take issue. Boo hoo. Oh well, I don’t see other cc issuers jumping on this because they’ll be too busy picking up consumers avoiding chase.

  16. Chris says:

    Well summarized post with all the recent reports from Flyertalk.
    I agree it seems Business accounts doesn’t seems to matter. But what do you think about Chase’s own Business accounts? They surely can see these and possibly count then as the 5 account limit.

  17. Daniel says:

    Think i am missing something…why won’t transferring existing credit from another card help?

    • Aahz says:

      Because they won’t permit transferring existing credit to create a new card if you’re denied for too many new cards in the last two years.

      • Daniel says:

        Appears that is not correct. B4 i posted I had applied for both freedom and sapphire (have no other cards with chase). called reconsideration and they said sapphire was denied due to to many recent applications. connected me to regular review and got freedom approved; then back to reconsideration and now that freedom application was approved they took a second look at sapphire and approved it. even let me move some of the credit from the freedom approval onto sapphire

  18. jim says:

    NOTHING NEW! All you had to do was copy & paste from their own website and applications! It says they will shut down/deny/take back if your only intention is to earn max points.

  19. blake says:

    hmmm…this wouldn’t have made much sense before now, but have people had success doing a product change TO sapphire preferred? sounds like my SO and i won’t be able to get a new one most likely, and we have no other way to transfer to travel partners…

  20. Sandra says:

    What I’m noticing is all this talk about Chase denying churners, but no one is saying Chase is looking at how many accounts an applicant has closed. Isn’t a churner someone who opens a new account (for that nice initial bonus), closes it in time to avoid having to pay an annual fee, and then opens it again (after the 2 years from initial bonus post in the case of Chase) to get a new sign up bonus? Seems to me that Chase has not thought out what they are doing or they would be looking at account closures as well. By just looking at openings they are potentially alienating customers who actually keep their accounts and do pay annual fees. Or, is it just too difficult for them to calculate closures and they are desperate so they are only looking at openings (and counting authorized users with that). IDK – I just see a lot of potential for customer alienation here.

    • cheapblackdad says:

      This! Chase is denying people not for churning, per se, but for # of applications.

      For what it’s worth, I did sneak my wife in to the British Airways card about a month ago and she definitely had 5+ applications over the past two years on whichever bureau they pulled. Co-Branded seems to still be in play.

  21. Jay says:

    Yeah, about a month ago I applied for the UA and Ink Cash back to back. United was auto-approved and Ink was pending. When I called in they said “9 cards signed up for in last year, no way.” I pushed a little and they painstakingly went through the details of my business (which was…flimsy) and reiterated “no way.” I got the impression that if, I dunno, I was a restaurant owner or something I might have had a chance, but as a churner with a book selling “business” on Amazon I got shut out.

  22. Freedom says:

    I think that Chase has quotas to open/approve a certain # of their co-branded credit cards. Since they’re enforcing the 4 card max now, does this not impact the behavior of applicants – for example, not apply for co-branded Chase cards and apply for the UR earning cards going forward? It may backfire on the co-branded cards. At least, that’s how I’m leaning toward at this time. (Of course, still doesn’t address the issue that I’m still interested in applying for othe banks’ credit cards)

  23. Sergey says:

    I honestly don’t understand the logic of the Chase. It’s not about churners anymore – people, who apply for the same credit card bonus over and over and over again. Now, Chase considers any person who applied for 5+ cards in 2 year mark (which is quite long) a bad person who just wants their card for “free miles/points”. If so, just implement a policy like Amex did for personal cards – one bonus in life time. Now, it seems that Chase doesn’t really want anybody or if you want a Chase card, just don’t get any cards from other banks, only from them. Really, really stupid move.

    • Parkerthon says:

      Exactly… This policy is beyond slaughtering the hogs as another poster put it. It seems like their policies are wildly gyrating back and forth between being elitist and being desperate for new account holders.

    • COLIN says:

      “5+ cards in 2 years is quite long…”

      Says who???

      You??

      The others who post on this board???

      It would appear that in Chase’s view of its underwriting standards, 5 plus credit cards in 2 years is quite too many.

      I think the only way they will justify your opening additional accounts/cards is for you to show that your annual income can support 5 plus credit cards in 2 years.

      Unfortunately, many of you likely cannot under their underwriting standards, but don’t be crestfallen, after all, you got some great sign-up bonuses while the gravy train lasted.

      The real questions you will have to ask yourselves is which credit card issuer you really wish to remain with in order to cultivate a good relationship with them going forward.

      • Parkerthon says:

        Before I pick apart that logic… You posted like 15 times in response to comments your approval of this new policy and disapproval of churners/ms. Aside from maybe just trolling for giggles, what are you doing even reading this blog? Not being combative just curious.

        • COLIN says:

          I think there are very good points to be made here with respect to how you are to use the cards to maximize their benefit, what FF programs are good for which transfers, etc.

          I just don’t think that one has to go all HOG and must do MS and/or credit card churns to do well with bonuses and knowledge with respect to how the programs work.

          So, I am not a troll, but I do think that the Sky is Falling responses of some are ludicrous, especially the responses that I will take my toys and play elsewhere….

          Just because you don’t like the way they are enforcing and/or structuring their program(s) is no reason to go off in a sulk, and to say that you will take your “LOYALTY” elsewhere, is the height of chutzpah.

          The only demonstrated loyalty has been to obtaining a bigger return, regardless of the potential consequences … and now those chickens have come home to roost.

          Now, don’t get me started on those who signed up for a card KNOWING that their annual fee could not be waived and would be due and owing, and then have obtained a refund of same by lowering their credit limits on that card … that is at best unethical, and at worst, potentially criminal.

          Nothing anyone has stated on the above thread remotely approaches that behavior — People who churned, or who wished to churn, blindly followed statements by certain bloggers that their would be no downside to having multiple credit cards and/or applications, when in truth, nothing is farther from fact in the real world.

          They got caught with a bite to the ass, and now are complainnig because of their own greed. i can’t get worked up over that.. Lesson learned … I hope.

          Does that answer your question??

          You see, there is reasonable middle ground out there, but some have not seen it — until today.

          • COLIN says:

            And, by the way Parkerthon, I have now counted the number of posts that I had made above — excepting the one immediately responding to your query above — as well as the number of posts that you have made.

            Would you like to know the number??

            Far from my posting some 15 times, I executed 5 posts.

            Your number, why 6, of course!

            I hope that you will be fairer in your post count in the future.

          • Parkerthon says:

            Fair enough. Point still stands that Chase is trying to discourage consumers from applying with other banks with this approach. That’s awfully arrogant but given their history I am not surprised. I have a feeling it won’t last long but we will see. If they set precedence it’ll just mean the sign up bonuses will get bigger as people get stingier with apps. These idiots in finance don’t consider the bigger picture though when they put a spreadsheet together and hold meetings to explain to their 50 bosses why the numbers say it’s a good idea. More power to them. They lost my real business and trust years ago.

          • Joe says:

            “Now, don’t get me started on those who signed up for a card KNOWING that their annual fee could not be waived and would be due and owing, and then have obtained a refund of same by lowering their credit limits on that card … that is at best unethical, and at worst, potentially criminal.” So… apparently you’re arguing that if consumers make financial decisions in their own interests rather than in JP Morgan Chase’s interest they are committing a crime? Did you flunk out of 17 law schools or something? It’s not even a violation of the terms to do that. How could it possibly be a crime? The whole business of consumer credit depends in large part on people spending more money than they can afford. Now I’m not really criticizing the big banks, but which is more unethical taking $500 from JP Morgan Chase or taking billions of dollars from poor people? You are really the high priest of the cult of billionaires. To be clear I am not really criticizing JP Morgan Chase — I just think your values are perverse.

      • Sandra says:

        The reports are not of Chase denying based on income. It’s not just people who have been “riding the gravy train” that are getting denied. If, in fact, a credit card issuer such as Chase was trying to make people choose between credit card issuers that does not sound like a good business practice. It should be no more necessary to choose only one credit card provider than to choose only one restaurant franchise, theme park, airline, or hotel to the exclusivity of all others. Imagine the outrage if any of the above businesses tried to pull such a thing.

  24. smedleyb says:

    Winter is coming.

  25. Christian says:

    I’m looking at applying for the Hyatt card at the end of this month. My credit is good enough to get the card, but I’ve got lots of inquiries. I’ve seen the mention of some UA cards, but has anyone in similar circumstance either been approved or denied lately based on new criteria?

    • COLIN says:

      Yes, recently applied and approved for Chase IHG MC, Chase Freedom and Chase UA Explorer Card — all within the last 2 months.

      However, I maintain a private banking relationship with JP Morgan, so that is a bit different from where you folks sit, I would think.

      It also did not hurt by my advising my banker that I intend to drop my Platinum AMEX in the near future as most of my loyalty programs are now with Chase affiliated products.

      • Sandra says:

        Private banking relationship didn’t help in dh’s denial. I am thinking Chase’s stance is probably more recent than 2 months. I would be quite surprised if you were able to get a Freedom or Sapphire Preferred today.

        • COLIN says:

          Nope, was approved for the IHG MC yesterday and the Chase Freedom and UA Explorer within the last week.

          It is true, however, that I was asked to call Chase to answer some additional questions — such as the Diners Club card and AMEX Platinum card that I have held for quite some time — so they did wish to know about other open accounts, but they were satisfied with the length of my relationship with that products, as well, I guess, with my response that I will be ending my relationship with BMO (now, it was Citi when I opened the DC) and downgrading my relationship with AMEX, as I see no reason to have either card going forward in the future.

          Nope, it was simply the number of new applications you must have executed, and I would presume a sufficient lack of net worth — or $$ invested in various Chase assets, to help you overcome that hurdle, if what you say about your supposed Private Banking relationship is actually true.

          But, truly, don’t fret.

          If your relationship is as you say it is, they will most certainly approve you for the card in due course … and in the meantime, you can demonstrate to them that you are worthy of additional credit by having sufficient spend on your card each month, paying it off on time, and being a good customer.

          In addition, you still have those glorious bonuses you earned or will be earning on those other cards, so why the sad face?

          • Mrskeptic says:

            Hmmm…. so you were approved for 3 chase cards within a 2 week span…..

            Also you said you thought 5 cards in two years was a lot but 3 cards in two weeks is OK…….

  26. Ken says:

    I was just about to cancel the CSP and reapply but now I might just keep it. Too many inquiries this year 🙁

  27. Georgia says:

    Thank goodness I have not been affected by the new Chase rules. I was just approved for the Southwest Plus card on Tuesday. Less than 2 months ago I was approved for the Southwest Premier. I now have 8 personal Chase credit cards. Also, I am an AU on 5 other Chase cards. Maybe I have not had any problems because I have a checking and savings account with Chase.
    I have opened 9 credit cards with other banks in the past year and have never been denied an application.

    • NN says:

      I have a Chase checking/Savings also, but with 7 non chase cc’s in the past year, denied with the ‘too many 2 year’ letter.

  28. Kate says:

    One more data point, from mid-May. Have several Chase cards, and have applied for probably 20 or so cards from all banks during the last couple of years, but was auto-approved for the Chase Sapphire, my second one… (closed the first about three years ago).

    • Parkerthon says:

      Yeah, there’s definitely some other combining factor that is triggering the denials. Wonder if it’s average account age?

  29. glenn says:

    seems reasonable. I like this site but when you show and advocate every possible way to drain every benefit you have to expect something like this. expect more companies to follow. they are doing this to build up their customer base, not just to hand out money.

    i’m kind of surprised it took this long. some people keep track of when they opened each account so they can reapply after a known period of time to get another sign up bonus. likely the same people who will only use those cards for purchases that pay the highest cash back/points.

    it totally makes sense to use them that way from a consumer perspective but from the business’ point of view you appear to be the worst type of customer

  30. ML says:

    If Chase recon is saying no to Ink Plus due to too many inquiries, is it worth trying for a different Chase card in same AOR? (Already approved for Chase Fairmont which brings to total of 4 Chase consumer cards). Is it better to go for say a BA card or would that harm chances of Ink recon (already 2 x HUCA w/ no luck)?

    • ML says:

      Data point:
      Decided to go for BA card. Instant online approval. (This after another instant online approval earlier in day for Chase Fairmont).
      Yes, I know Ink is a harder card to get approved and it’s a different system, but both HUCA reps said that it had nothing to do with my credit or number of cards that I currently have with Chase. Simply about inquiries within past 2 years. Seems like this is the new reality, at least for UR cards.

  31. Sergey says:

    I think if Chase wants to cut off “churners” they need to look to other data as well instead of number of inquires. For example, if a person got a Chase card (United, IHG, etc) in the past, spent only the required minimum to get a bonus, cancelled it after a year and then reapply again in 2 years – and the same for other Chase cards – yes, this person can be considered as churner and not profitable for Chase. Therefore, denial is understandable. But what about other people, who continue to use the cards? For example, my wife got her United card last September and up to date spent $50K+ (while minimum to get a bonus is $2K). In January she got a BA Visa, spending up to date is ~$25K (minimum spend for bonus is $2K). Now, in June, she applied for Hyatt Visa and denied because of “too much cards with other banks”. Is it really significant if she actively uses her Chase cards (I guess Chase wants to see it)? For instance, one of my friends, who has a banking/investing/etc relationship with Chase, was new in the game and churned Chase cards like crazy – each cycle (applied/got a bonus/cancelled) was like 3 months and repeated. I was really surprised that Chase allows such thing.

    Or Chase can implement another thing – if a person applies for the same card again (even in 2 years), charge him an annual fee upfront for first year (most cards are first-year-free).

    • COLIN says:

      You make some good points, Sergey, but you are being a bit disingenuous about the spend on your wife’s UA Explorer card, aren’t you??

      Of course your wife has spent $50,000 to date on the card!!

      After all, by spending $25,000 on the card in each calendar year, she is also eligible for an additional 10,000 miles bonus each calendar year!

      So, let’s not make her out to be the saint that you assert that she is; rather that she is after a decent bonus and to obtain it, she is doing what is necessary.

      Nothing wrong with that, and perhaps Chase ought to go that route to insure continued use of their cards, but she is most certainly not their most altruistic customer by a long shot!

      • Parkerthon says:

        I think you’re jumping to conclusions here Colin. The 10k bonus is hardly worth that much additional spend when better options exist for MS if you’re really in it to maximize points. Can’t we admit the possibility here that whatever the policy exactly is(aside from the too many card applications), it potentially is doing more harm than good to even your more genuine customers? Perhaps folks are exaggerating being the target audience, but the chorus seems loud enough elsewhere that I doubt that’s the case.

        • COLIN says:

          Parkethon, those who post on this board — and I include myself among them — are not the regular credit card customer that Chase encounters.

          We most certainly are genuine, but I would not call this small sample anything but an outlier when it comes to the bank’s credit card customers.

          As such, many of these customers cost the bank more than they are worth they have decided with respect to the outlay of points as opposed to the ordinary customer who signs up for the cards — it is that simple.

      • Sergey says:

        With all due respect, I am starting to think that you (Colin) a Chase representative. What is in your point of view a “proper” usage of Chase cards? Let me guess – to get something like Freedom card (or just plain Chase card without rewards but with annual fee, if exists) and use it exclusively (means, no other credit cards). Is this right? If Chase introduced a bonus of 10K for United card, what is a problem? Anyway, it is not like “spend $1K, get 10K miles”. It is $25K spend, and the card earns mostly 1x. I’ll guess my wife’s usage of United card earned Chase a lot of swipe’s fees.

        • COLIN says:

          Actually, Sergey, I am not a Chase representative and to answer Parker’s query, I disagree — and I believe that Sergey is in agreement with me on this one — I think a 10,000 United miles bonus is something worthwhile for putting $25,000 spend on the card.

          Now, I don’t believe in MS because I think it is just too much effort, etc. — but I have no issue with anyone who does that as long as they do that legally, and as far as I can see, that is done legally.

          Now, if they want to go ferreting out gift cards and then re-sell those elsewhere or buy items for sale on e-bay more power to them, but I have better things to do with my time.

          Fortunately, our finances permit us to meet the spend through other means, but I do not begrudge those who meet it in another manner, at all.

          With respect to your wife, Sergey, I have no problem with her charging the $25,000 to get the bonus — that is what we are going to do!

          What I do have a problem with is that you couched it that she would have received her bonus after a $2,000.00 spend, and although true, why not put extra $$ on the card — if you can afford it — to get that further bonus.

          But, you left that part out, as well as the fact that after spending the initial $2,000.00 she would not have received another bonus, at all. You were trying to hard to make your argument and you wound up lessening it — that’s all.

          As I have said, we are pursuing that same 35,000 bonus miles per year — and I do believe that is a worthwhile endeavor — other wish to obtain more and I have no truk with that, only the whining and stating that they have demonstrated a commitment to Chase — HOGWASH!!

          It has been said before and I will repeat it — actions have consequences and just because one was able to do this type of thing at an earlier point in time, does not mean that they can continue to do it.

          I will reiterate — If you play within the rules you reap the rewards. If you push the envelope, this is what happens.

          I can only guess that those who have not been rejected have demonstrated either a truly high ability to put spend on their cards thru MS or have a very high income and opening further accounts does not offend Chase, or you don’t meet those criteria.

          One may be upset by the changed circumstances they may now find themselves in, but you aren’t fooling anyone but yourselves with talk of taking one’s “loyalty” elsewhere.

          • Sergey says:

            May be it is late, but you are mixing things – MS and churners. You don’t need to a MS to churn cards (if you remember, 3-5 years ago all bonuses on Chase cards were like “after first purchase”). So, people got cards, spent $1 and got 25K-50K miles or free nights (like for Hyatt/IHG).

            If you do a MS, you can do it on any card. So, if, for example, I pick up a Chase United Visa and do lots of MS, does it really matter for Chase what I do (if it is legal, of course) or how it is different from you, for example, who has ability to spend (for example) easily $25K in few months?

            My point is that Chase should analyze each customer not by number of new credit cards, but by how customer uses those cards (if uses at all). If they see lots of spending (which brings them money), why deny new applications?

  32. Trevor the Penguin says:

    It would surprise me if Chase decided to do this without doing a fair amount of research. It would not appear to be hard to see if there is a strong correlation between instances of new accounts with high #s of new accounts on credit reports and low profitability on those accounts. If you are reading this, there is a good chance you do not carry a balance (pay interest), or if you do, you find the lowest interest card as possible. If you have 5+ inquiries, you also have a lot of cards to spread those transaction fees across.

    I’m starting on my MBA this fall and frankly love finance, economics, and want to become a “numbers guy”. It makes absolute sense to me. What lots of inquires tells Chase is that you will not be giving them a return on their signup bonus, in interest or transaction fees.

    On the upside, a little bit of pre-planning will mean that we can still take advantage of the most lucrative that Chase has to offer. Compare the 40K CSP to the 50K on United or BA, or the higher offers on IHG etc. I really would like that metal CSP but when looking at what my Chase application will be next, I cannot justify it. Co-branded cards offer (generally) higher interest (I do not get cards to carry balances) and locked into one rewards program. Not a problem in either case, to me. The Ink Plus I really like and plan to pickup at some point; from what we are hearing, it is somewhat less affected.

    It stinks because the Freedom could be a good way to MS with 5% categories. Lately, I’ve been too busy meeting minimum spend requirements to see myself bothering with it. Plus, not all of the categories are exactly easy to MS. A loss? Yes. Does it hurt me much? Nope, just means I have to plan a bit more.

  33. Annie says:

    I recently had this happen with Chase. I applied for a UA EXP and a CSP on the same day. Went to recon and they approved UA EXP but not CSP. I begged, offered to exchange regular Sapphire, re-allocate, nothing worked and I escalated several times. They were flat out “too many new cards in last two years”‘ I’ve only been doing this for one year but still. Tried to get them to tell me how long I had to wait for new app and they basically said in a coded way, “2 years”– “you have too many new apps and we want to see how you handle this new $XXXK of credit.” I asked specifically about AUs and they said they did NOT take that into consideration. I have a dozen new apps in the last year, SO perhaps 8 and was thinking of apply for him given that they did approve my UA EXP– how to decide?

  34. stayingAnonthistime says:

    Another data point: denied Monday for CSP. I had it a few years ago and paid the annual fee once; downgraded to regular Sapphire about 18 months ago, cancelled six months ago. About 7 inquiries in last two years, 6 successful (denied, again, for CapOne).. Have two Chase personal cards (Freedom and IHG), Once had UA personal and Ink Plus, cancelled both wo paying fee.

    Oddly, in the same cycle on Monday, approved by Amex and… US Bank.

    • COLIN says:

      You are a perfect example of what I have been stating above to Parker, et. al.

      You paid the annual fee once on the CSP, you avoided paying the annual fee on both the UA Explorer and Ink Plus, earning at a minimum shall we say 85,000 UA miles and at least 50, 000 UR points and you and others express surprise that you were denied a CSP yet again??

      Let me ask you this, if you were running the bank or working in its department, why should they give you another credit card, when you have a demonstrated history of stiffing them when the annual fee comes due?

      I don’t find it odd that you were approved by AMEX, US Bank, yes, but not AMEX.

      I think AMEX’s products SUCK big time and US Bank’s is really not much better with their change with respect to the Club Carlson card.

      As others have said, various companies will seek to obtain market share from the others, but since I think that Chase has the most valuable stable of partners now, they can afford to be picky.

      Citi has at least one good partner in AA but what does AMEX have as US based corporations have — DELTA & HHONORS — THE LEAST VALUABLE AND VALUED OF THEIR RESPECTIVE REWARDS CURRENCIES!!

      So, more power to you, but just remember, what comes around ….

      • stayingAnonthistime says:

        You don’t know anything about my spending habits or the cards I’ve kept and paid the AF for, and your replies are condescending and rude. I provided another data point, and you invented the rest of a profile for me, in order to jump to a conclusion.

        I suggest you find better uses of your time.

        • COLIN says:

          No, my points are based upon what you wrote above. They are facts unless you were lying. I did not invent the following:

          “CSP. I had it a few years ago and paid the annual fee once…”

          nor did I magically create the following statement:

          “Once had UA personal and Ink Plus, cancelled both wo paying fee.”

          I know enough to write what I wrote about you. Your decision to now strenuously deny the obvious speaks volumes about how you conduct yourself and your ethics — FACT.

          • Cheapblackdad says:

            Colin,
            Ease up, bro.

            It may be hard to believe for you, but you are coming across like a rich, self absorbed, condescending troll. And you do it so effortlessly that I thinksbits safe to say that’s what you are.

            We get it. You make more money than us and don’t need to MS or churn like we do. You don’t approve of us ordinary people doing extraordinary things in our efforts to give our family’s incredible travel expeiences. Dirt on shoulder.

            Also, are you retired or a trust fund kid? How do you have this much time? Is the rest of your life so lacking in value that you can commit to 15 posts committed to putting people down? I’m sitting on a toilet right now and have nothing better to do than type this. But you make this look like its a full time job. Are you on vacation?

            Go volunteer in a community less fortunate than yours.

          • JACK says:

            You Know, Im about tired of your crap. This is a churner’s website. Don’t like it? Dont click here! You remind me of a prude, who gets offended when clicking on an adult website. If youre not into it, stay away!

          • anthonyjh21 says:

            @ JACK

            Or, better yet, perhaps he should s*** or get off the pot. Sorry, had to say it lol.

    • Ken says:

      Thanks for the data points. I was also denied for Ink Cash a few weeks ago due to “too many inquiries” I was approved for Club Carlson and Amex Delta after the denial. I will hold onto my Sapphire as it is actually my oldest Chase card. It’s one of my favorite cards. It’s aesthetically pleasing and I think I’ve been brain washed by all the bloggers on how amazing it is when I know there are plenty other cards that are just as amazing! LOL

  35. joelbnyc says:

    Are they counting store cards towards the 5?

    IE if I have 4 credit cards and also 2 store cards within past 2 years, don’t bother apping Freedom?

  36. Radster says:

    Data point: Girlfriend denied Freedom CC due to “too many CC applications in previous 2 years”. Record of 3 new CC’s in her name [two with Chase] plus 3 AU accounts in that time.

    Just SUPER happy we got our SW Companion Pass and flights home for Xmas before this policy change.

  37. Steve says:

    My girlfriend, who barely plays this game, has two Chase cards, a United and Amazon, and a few other cards from other banks. She applied for and was denied a Freedom card this last week. I, on the other hand, have like 20 cards from various banks from the past 3 years, including a United, Marriott, Ink and 2 Freedoms (one downgraded from a CSP), and I got immediately accepted for a Hyatt today with a ridiculously high credit line (which I plan to reduce). Weird.

    • joelbnyc says:

      Cobranded cards supposedly aren’t affected (yet).

      And why reduce a CL? Just more curling space to reduce your overall ute, increase your average CL, and also fico score increases even btwn 500K and 1 million total available credit, for instance.

      • joelbnyc says:

        Cobranded cards supposedly aren’t affected (yet).

        And why reduce a CL? Just more ceiling space to reduce your overall ute, increase your average CL, and also fico score increases even btwn 500K and 1 million total available credit, for instance.

      • Steve says:

        Yeah, I did read that. I’m just pointing out the distinction and that my gf barely does anything but got stopped.

        I consider reducing my CL because Chase (historically) has focused on amount of credit extended, not account numbers, so with less credit given then they won’t make me recon in the future to shift my CL around, I’ll just get auto-accepted. I hate hate hate talking to the CC companies.

  38. Freedom says:

    This is just a wild hunch…but more and more, I’m becoming convinced that Chase, at this time, would rather approve more of their co-branded cards OVER its own UR-earning credit cards. I seem to have read somewhere that Chase has contractual requirements with the airlines/hotels to approve a certain # of these co-branded cards.

    If my theory is correct, then it would seem to be a conflict now, if they’re trying to meet their co-brand quotas, to approve UR-earning cards that earn transferable points to these SAME airlines/hotels? I may have read somewhere that the Chase IHG (or is it Southwest?) partner contract is expiring soon?

    • Ken says:

      That’s a really good theory! I never use UR points directly because I always transfer to Hyatt and airlines. So if chase were to limit churning on their UR card then the next available option to acquire a similar benefit of the UR would be the Hyatt or BA cards…

  39. Mark says:

    I don’t know if this is normal, or something Chase did to mitigate a potential loss as a sort of ‘penalty,’ but I recently applied for a Chase Ink Plus business card and ran up the charges quickly to meet the minimum spending requirement for the bonus, to which they immediately billed me for the annual fee. It’s the first time I’ve ever been billed for an annual fee up front. I also have the Freedom, CSP, and IHG Rewards cards with Chase.

  40. Aahz says:

    The same new policy discussed in the post applies to the Slate, though it’s not mentioned anywhere on the page. I know because that was the card they denied me on for this very reason. Underwriter confirmed it applies to Freedom, Slate & CSP (no mention of Ink, but that could be because I already have one).

  41. anthonyjh21 says:

    @ Chuck Sithe

    You stated “Business cards (INK) may be slightly easier to get than personal cards”

    Can you elaborate on this?

    I currently have the CSP and my first AF isn’t due until next March. I want the Chase INK Plus and my initial plan was to get it somewhere around when my CSP AF is due. I currently haven a Chase checking/savings account and I’m now left wondering if I should continue to keep these accounts longer (pushing back any bank bonus churning) as a cost of doing business in hopes of gaining approval for a future INK Plus.

    Not sure what my next move should be.

  42. Steve says:

    I’m just glad that we all have COLIN to tell us how to use our credit cards properly.

  43. Pingback: A Way Around Chase's New Rules - Doctor Of Credit

  44. HIYA! As always a great post.

    I haven’t read through every comment, so excuse me if this is redundant – but I’m curious whether the bloggers with Chase affiliate links have reported a decline in commissions (I’ve never had any Chase links – or much else for that matter). I would assume they are gagged from reporting that, but has anyone been able to glean this?

    I recently wrote a post about Chase and the plethora of compromised cards and accounts. I am about to write another such post (If I find the time). How I wonder does this fit into the scenario, if at all?

    Kathy http://willrunformiles.boardingarea.com

  45. COLIN says:

    Cheap Black Dad —

    As a matter of fact, I do volunteer work and we donate a large degree of our income to charity.

    However, I see from the above and your post, as well, that my comments have hit many a raw nerve and I will try to refrain from appearing too preachy and it certainly was not my intent to come off elitist.

    As I had stated above — if anybody had actually bothered to read what I wrote — I have no problem with those who feel they must MS to earn points, etc. We are fortunate that we do not need to do this, that’s all.

    Notwithstanding this, I will point out the hypocrisy of those when they are whining about “loyalty” vis a vis the changes to the Chase’s underwriting guidelines.

    • Parkerthon says:

      Yes, we get it, people are hypocritical and contradictory. Applies here like it does everywhere else. All anyone on here(and in blogs) can do is speculate and opine about why Chase does what they do and of course it all represents personal experience and self interest which is ripe for hypocrisy. Pointing that out, alas, doesn’t change anyone’s opinion of Chase or the circumstances. Given how competitive the credit card marketplace is means consumers expectations are loftier and they expect banks to be submissive and pay them to use their cards. Perhaps that’s changing, but banks in the United States make a killing on credit cards which is why the bonuses are so high and numerous currently. It carried them through the 2008 financial meltdown but the market is now saturated and they are competing for consumers. It’s a symbiotic relationship that perpetuates itself too. Points and cashback are why limiting swipe fees isn’t popular with consumers that have an opinion on the issue. If the system becomes less lucrative for consumers, they will no longer side with banks and instead will favor merchants. When that happens, the whole gig is up which frankly I’m okay with even if it kills my gravy train.

    • Lantean says:

      the problem is not even what you say – your logic is fairly sound. the problem is how confrontational and arrogant you are. no one would side with a person who communicates their point like that.

      now about loyalty… i have $110k in my Chase savings… by your standards, am I loyal or not?
      i simply expect Chase to approve me for cards I want… I churn some and I renew some, it all depends. but when they reject me (which has not happened lately) I would not make a big deal out of it either, i respect they set their own rules. however, if the rejections become common, I may take my savings somewhere else. that’s all.

  46. COLIN says:

    Both of you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and I apologize for my initially hostile post to you Lantean.

    As with all things, sometimes we can all get carried away with our opinions and I feel it incumbent upon me to issue a mea culpa in this circumstance.

    I won’t feel sorry for those who I believe skirt the envelope so completely by dropping cards before their annual fee posts and who therefore pocket the sign up bonus — legal, yes, long-term good relationship with the card issuer — well, we now see the results.

    In any event, just because the banks make $$ off of consumers — which some rationalize as “scandalous,” is a poor excuse to play whack a mole and drop the cards. As I have noted above, actions have consequences, and although these attractive sign up bonuses come close to the idea of a “free” lunch, in the long term, if you don’t continue the business relationship after the attractive come on, after awhile, they will not be forthcoming.

    Lantean, because you have a large sum in your checking account with them, that should likely make you a better candidate to avoid outright rejection and/or what Mr. Charles advises by contacting your branch bank and stating your case.

    In any event, the era of “free money” appears to be coming to a close, but as with all who know a bit about business — as I am sure most do on this blog — these things are cyclical within an industry, or within a financial institution and likely other opportunities will present themselves in due course.

    • a guy says:

      But the annual fee is charged in advance, so is it unethical to drop a card before an annual fee is due because you don’t want the card for the upcoming year? If the card is good enough, then it would be worth it to keep it. I’ve done it all, kept cards that I loved for years, kept cards for only one year, and kept cards for a few months. There is no ethics in this game, let’s be real. There are only varying shades of grey. Why get worked up over what is right and wrong, when its a useless debate with no correct answer? Colin you can use the cards as it suits your lifestyle, as can everyone else. I agree with you when you laugh at the hypocrisy of people who criticize Chase for changing their rules, when in fact, churners cannot make them money. You probably could have left your argument with that instead of getting embroiled into petty fights. This is a constantly evolving game, everyone has to adapt to it month by month. As for me, I have over 400k in Ur points because Ive never actually needed to use them. Value from travel redemptions was never good value even with the bonus, and I have too many airline miles for any transfer to make sense. I’m really thinking of cashing them out….

  47. COLIN says:

    Joe —

    I could not respond to your response above so I will do so here. If you lie on a credit card application you subject yourself to potential criminal penalties, it is that simple.

    The people who have executed those agreements have obligated themselves to pay $395.00/year for the privilege of holding those credit cards. By re-allocating their credit limits and obtaining a refund of that fee, that is unethical behavior and potentially criminal behavior in my opinion and also not worth the risk of the consequences.

    You can lampoon me all you wish by posting that I flunked out of 17 or more law schools, but that is very far from the truth. I’ll just leave it at that.

    • JACK says:

      What absolute nonsense. I have been doing this for YEARS, and NEVER Pay Annual Fees. get a life, really troll. Flunked law school? Hardly. Seems like u flunked the 9th grade.

  48. SRT says:

    Irrespective of which side you’re on when it comes to judging churning or MS as a practice, I would like to thank this blog for starting the discussion. After Doctor of Credit started this discussion, I was hoping that other bloggers would also talk about this. But nothing has come up in the last 48 hours. Seems like Chase has pretty much gagged them from writing about this.

    As someone who is a points and miles junkie myself, I agree with COLIN and some of the other commenters in parts who seem to have a counterpoint. As much as we all love miles and points, once must realize that the banks and airlines/hotels hold all the cards. They can change the rules any time, change the way we earn or redeem miles or devalue a point/mile currency. We all celebrate when we get a great deal and like most things in life, there will be ups and downs. Miles and points junkies should realize that good deals come and go and as long as we all are acting in good faith as customers, banks will want to get our business. Nobody is entitles to miles and points and much as I’m disappointed with this new rule by Chase, I know this is not the end of the game.

  49. Steve says:

    Data point following an above comment: My girlfriend who got denied for a Freedom card because of too many accounts in the last two years called recon today and the agent said she had to “sort out” my gf’s own accounts from the AU accounts I’d put her on over the years (3-4 of them). Once this was done, she approved my girlfriend for the Freedom card.

    This makes me wonder if I should go back and cancel the outstanding but unused AUs on cards, at least once they hit the one year mark if I keep the cards in question.

  50. HillcountryQT says:

    I recently did an app-o-Rama and the only chase product was the Hyatt card. I already have sapphire and two SW cards, all obtained within the last 6 months (note-been holding on to the SW Plus card to allow me to barter CL if necessary). Also, applied for and was denied for the Ink Plus card about a month ago. They wanted tax returns for my business (which I don’t have). I wasn’t immediately approved for the Hyatt card, but received email to call and verify info. I was offered opportunity to move CL from one of the SW cards, which I gracefully accepted.

  51. Richard says:

    I have a FICO of 820. Last week I applied for CSP & was denied with too many cards in 2 years.
    I don’t churn & don’t MS. I have a Marriott Premier for 10 yrs & United Club Card for 2 years.
    I pay all the AF, inc. the $395 for the UA club card. I called my Chase bank, spoke to a VP that I know, he called a special number, & I was still denied, even though I offered to move CL. I think this is a good way to get rid of the churners & MS people, but it’s foolish to lose people like me since I will now just go to other banks.

  52. ff_lover says:

    Overall it is a positive for “most of the folks” since there will be less # of UR points competing for the same UAL flights or Hyatt rooms.These clampdowns may be partially due to Hotels are getting fuller and Flights are full and so Airline/Hotel are telling Chase to clamp down. I am surprised that none of the other bloggers (TPG, FTG, MM, Mommy, Boarding Area) have yet to flash this critical news to their readers..

  53. Sean says:

    I was turned down for a Chase Slate (a SLATE, for goodness’ sake! I just wanted that 0% offer, no bonus points with this card) last week for having 5 new accounts, or so Reconsideration told me. FICO 791.

  54. MileHighBug says:

    Posted this on MileValue and am repeating here for an added data point:

    I believe the new changes also apply to the co-branded credit cards, though maybe not at the same level. My husband and I have each opened 15-20 credit cards in the past two years, and we were both denied on two Chase applications each in the past week. I applied for the Sapphire Preferred but was also denied on the Hyatt; he was denied for the Hyatt and the United Explorer Business card. In the cases of the Sapphire Preferred and Hyatts, we were both told it was solely the number of cards we have opened in the past two years that was the reason for denial. We were both told we have stellar credit; my husband was told his credit was the best the rep had ever seen! No matter what we offered though – including moving lines of credit and closing existing cards – the reps would not budge. I HUCA’d three times; the third time the rep read the notes and knew I was calling asking for the same thing again, and sounded very annoyed (though she remained professionally polite in the words she used).

    For the United Business card, my husband was told the open cards in the past two years was a problem, but a bigger problem was that his company needs to have a revenue of $5000 or more to open any Chase Business card. I open 4-6 cards for each of us every quarter, and have done so for several years. I’ve had success for each of us, many times in the past, opening two Chase cards on the same day, as well as opening business cards for our start-up businesses of teaching dance, cross-stitch design, reselling office supplies, and reselling (music) cds (all of which had $0-500 income per year).

    This response from Chase was shocking, absolutely new and different from the past. Unless I hear that their policy changes, we will not be applying for Chase cards going forward, since like you said, there are just too many other good cards out there to stop applying for 5+ cards over a two year period! Unfortunately, we just closed his two Inks (Bold and Plus) before this churn, assuming I would get a Sapphire Preferred. Now we currently have no way to transfer our UR points to airlines and I guess they are just going to sit on our Freedom cards for a while.

    • Chuck Sithe says:

      They were cracking down somewhat on ‘businesses’ in the past year or so. It could be this data point is more related to that issue. In any case, it’s sure getting tougher!

  55. Average Joe says:

    I’m confused by how adding an authorized user affects that person’s credit. The credit card company doesn’t even have the ss # of the AU or the direct authorization from that person, right? How can they even link it up to John Doe, if addresses and last names don’t match that of the primary user. I guess I just don’t understand how legally/technically it works. Seems like if this is the case, you can hurt someone’s credit score without them even knowing it. I guess I’m missing something here…? Thanks in advance for an clarity you guys can shed on this for me.

    • Jonathan says:

      Some credit card companies (if not all) will try to match the AU name to associate the name in their file. I have my own freedom card. When My wife’s applied her freedom card and add my name as an AU card, though she use my nickname as the AU name and not my legally name, the AU Freedom card is added to my credit report since the credit card reports store all my names used for the past twenty years.

      I have 5 first names listed in the credit reports, the credit report even stored some first names that I spell incorrectly before. e.g I have a first name “Jonatan” in my wife United AU card and my last name is different than My wife’s last name. The AU card is also displayed in my own credit reports.

  56. Newbie97 says:

    So, if you have had only two or three new cards in the last two years and you want Freedom, CSP, and Ink to start this “hobby”, which order do I apply for them and should I do two apps in one day?

  57. Sandra says:

    I got my dh’s credit report today from TransUnion which is the credit bureau listed on my dh’s denial letter. He opened 4 new cards in 2 years plus got 1 auto loan. One of the credit cards opened just passed the 2 year mark a few days ago so today his total new cards in 2 years would be 3 plus 1 auto loan. There are quite a few though that have been opened in past 2 years where he is authorized user and they show up on the report. Maybe he could ask Chase again now that new cards in last 2 years has fallen from 4 to 3, but I don’t think it is worth it since I believe they are counting authorized user accounts against him plus I don’t like the way Chase is doing business. He also only has 6 regular inquiries listed on his account (assuming last 2 years since oldes is dated Dec 2013) and three of those are for the one auto loan he took out. Interesting to see did promotional inquiries. Can I assume those are businesses who are interested/have sent him offers? Also, under account review inquiries creditcards.com shows up. I didn’t know that would show up anywhere. Also, I can see which banks check up on their customers. He also has an insurance company we got a quote from listed under account review inquiries. I have decided I just don’t want him to get a Freedom card and we will transfer his UR points to my account and close his Sapphire Preferred rather than pay an annual fee when it comes due. I am going to save his next app (down the road) for elsewhere.

  58. Jeff says:

    Instantly Approved just today for Chase Sapphire Preferred. Don’t know why I was approved though. I was approved for CFreedom just two days ago and these make my 6th and 7th cards in past six months (plus 1 more as AU). I now have 4 chase products total. Wish I had a clue as to how it happened so others could benefit.

  59. Michelle says:

    WOW…just spent 56 minutes on the Chase Recon Line – here’s the backstory:

    Attempting to apply for the 20k Chase Freedom promo.
    2 AU accounts in Nov 2013.
    2 New Credit Cards (1 AMEX – 1 CSP) in the last 3 months.
    1 Chase Disney card upgraded from their rewards to their Signature Premiere 3 months ago.

    1st Analyst said denied due to number of cards. I persisted on the AU accounts and he relented, he then asked a ton of questions – still denied. Many of his questions were about my income and my planned use for the cards. I had good answers – keeping reimbursable business expenses separate, Disney vacations on my Disney card, etc. He said 3 is still too many cards. I persisted on the Disney card upgrade. I offered to move credit limit over form the $15k on the Disney card. He looked some more and then he then said I was denied due to not having a sufficient payment history on the new cards. Each time he placed me on hold for around 3-5 minutes. After 25 minutes I told him that this seemed ridiculous and that I didn’t feel appreciated as a Chase customer, he apologized and said the decision was final. I asked if there was anybody else I could speak to about this because it didn’t seem right to me. He put me on hold for a Senior Lender Analyst (or something like that). I waited 10 minutes for them to pickup.

    That person went through many of the same things as the first analyst but she was a woman and much nicer than the last guy. Not to start a conspiracy – but man turned woman down but woman approved woman?? Anyway, after explaining the uses of the cards, giving more detail on the income, and offering to move credit limit over she said ok. We moved $5k from my Disney and I FINALLY have a Chase Freedom. The whole thing was CRAZY, but for $500 spend I get around $300 in Southwest Points through UR (since we luckily have a CSP).

  60. Henri123 says:

    I just applied the hyatt credit card with $50 statement and got pending with a reference number. And I called in and the rep just verified my basic information as address, mother’s maiden number and approved me with $5000 credit line. I have around 15 inquiries within the last year. I am pretty happy with that. As I assume that if chase increase the sign-up bonus with the co-branded card, it might be relatively easier to get approval.

  61. Paul says:

    What if I cancelled a card that I applied for a year ago? Would Chase count that in the 5 card limit?

  62. Pingback: $10 Into $1,000, Getting Approved For CSP, Chase IHG 80k, AwardWallet Compromised & Much More - Doctor Of Credit

  63. Pingback: New Rules for Chase Credit Card Approvals & What to Do About It! | Million Mile Secrets

  64. Debbra says:

    Hello, all is going well here and ofcourse every one is sharing data, that’s really excellent,
    keep up writing.

  65. Pingback: Chase Credit Card Limits (5/24) Soon to Apply on Business Card Applications - Doctor Of Credit

  66. Pingback: The Tragedy of the Miles (or: Why Chase’s 5/24 Rule is Good for You) – Points are King

  67. Cindi says:

    Anybody have a phone number to apply for a Chase card over the phone?

    I just 2 days ago applied for the Marriott card, figured I’d get in before the bonus expired and the 24/7 hit me. I have applied for several cards recently but not to churn but because I am flying a lot more than I did before so I wanted all the major airplane cards for free bags. I’ve also been figuring out a strategy about where to put my spend, on 2% cash back cards vs airline miles, etc.

    Anyway, the very next day, the Chase Freedom Unlimited was introduced, and that is exactly the card I want to put the majority of my spend on. But I suspect they will deny me. I am hoping that if I call and offer to get rid of a different Chase card, and forgo my Freedom Unlimited signup bonus, they will switch cards for me.

  68. Flyer says:

    Great post! It looks like the rule also applies for co-branded cards like United Mileage Explorer. I applied for United Mileage Explorer and stayed in pending status for a week. I called the reconsideration line and got it approved after lowering some credit from my Chase Sapphire card.

  69. Cindi says:

    888-245-0625 Is this the number you called? I didn’t get one in my cryptic email from them. I called this once because I usually have issues with my address, but they said that wasn’t it, it just hadn’t been processed yet. Then I saw other posts that said not to call the reconsideration line. Not sure if I should or not.

  70. Paul says:

    Well add me to the list. Called recon last evening regarding pending status on CSP and was told 10 cards in last year even though other items are fine. Interesting though in my discussion with rep. I asked him how is someone to go about changing their cards from the lower level reward cards to the better cards? For example, i was told I have too many open accounts, but if you close accounts, age of accounts goes down which hurts your score. Sometimes a catch 22

  71. Pingback: Bypass 5/24: Getting a Chase Pre-Approved Credit Card Offer - Doctor Of Credit

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